coronets-msg - 1/17/08 Medieval coronets and crowns. SCA coronets and crowns. NOTE: See also the files: jewelry-msg, beads-msg, gem-sources-msg, gloves-msg, headgear-msg, metals-msg, metalworking-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: zkessin at world.std.com (Zach) Subject: Re: Crowns, Coronets, & Law Organization: As little as posible Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 22:29:30 GMT blackhmr at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Robert M Van Rens) writes: >>Most of the SCA standards for coronets date to 1660. >> >>Guiliam >Where would one look for such information? I certainly don't know where to >begin...any suggestions anyone? I got it from "A Complete Guide to Heraldry" by Arther Charles Fox-Davies. Which is a good book to have and not to expensive. (There is a chapter on coronets) Guiliam >Eadric Blackhammer From: rorice at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Coronets! Help! Date: 24 Oct 1995 02:26:06 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Check out Ottfried Neubecker's "Heraldry: Sources, Symbols, and Meanings". It's got a lot of good color pictures of medieval and renaissance crowns and coronets. For Byzantine, the definitive source would be the frescoes from the Haigia Sophia that show Justinian and Theodora. As I remember, the Byzantine crown was more of a bejewelled cap with "earrings" hanging off of each side. Lothar Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 18:03:59 -0500 From: theodelinda at webtv.net (linda webb) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Stumpwork The Victoria and Albert Museum has examples of Elizabethan guildmasters crowns done in raised embroidery, which is the step before full-blown stumpwork--These are velvet circlets with embroidery on them. The one I recall best has a pattern of leaves and flowers, with a crest in the center. I believe most, if not all, of the embroidery, including the raised work, is in metal threads.--Theo Subject: BG - Bryn Gwlad Coronets Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 23:22:25 MST From: Dennis and/or Dory Grace <amazing at mail.utexas.edu> To: bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG Alina wrote: >About Bryn Gwlad Baronial Coronets. Why not incorporate some, if not all >insignias or devices that are the barony's and use them on and around the >baronial coronets. It would definitely help identify and let everyone know >what barony our baron and baroness are from. Suggestion: Look at all baronial >devices.Figure out which and what looks the best and with what. End result is >the design for the baronial coronets. I rather like this idea. I wonder how well the badge/device elements would go together in such a way; I bet it would make for a very impressive set of coronets. BTW, if anyone is interested, you're welcome to take a close look at our coronets. I really like the way the pearls were designed and applied--they're all easily replacable. Small brass tubes were soldered behind each point, a slightly smaller brass tube slips into the soldered tube (fitting quite tightly) which accomodates a brass hat pin. Slip a pearl onto the hat pin, insert a small bit of sticky wax into the brass tubes, and insert the pearl-on-a-pin into the brass tube. Voila'. Very nice. (Especially for someone like me who tends to be just a weeeeeeeee bit prone to crack or knock the pearls off on occassion (gotta stop that head-butting in the circles ;->). Aquilanne Subject: BG - new coronets Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:20:10 MST From: Chris Yone <cyone at sprd1.mdacc.tmc.edu> To: Bryn-Gwlad list <bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG> here are some sources for crown examples (though mostly royal) that are online. http://www.royal.gov.uk/history/anglos.htm (this site may take some time to load -I thought it was slow on a T1, may have been a bad connection) Picturse and a little about English rulers through the centuries. Medieval England 3 they are selling these plates, but the online versions are worth looking at. they do give some mention of sources-though very broad. Another thing to consiter that I think adds grace and sophistication to crowns and coronets is a velvet cap underneath. It was done in England by the 15th c. and was used by royalty and nobles. The main distinction between the royal circlets and others was that royalty had more (and bigger) gemstones and semi precious stones and detail. Royalty also had the crossing hoops topped with an orb by the 15th c. Kirsten MacDonald From: geard at clear.net.nz (J Geard) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Masters' Crowns Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:33:10 GMT Greetings all, from Alys; I quote from "Elizabethan Embroidery" (London: Faber, 1963) by George Wingfield Digby, who was Keeper of Textiles at the Victoria & Albert Museum: "CROWNS (City Livery Companies) "Crowns, usually of embroidered velvet, were used for crowning the masters at ceremonies of the Courts of the Livery Companies of London. The following crowns are still in the possession of the Companies: the Carpenters, dated 1561; the Girdlers, from the second half of the 16th century; the Broderers, second half of the 16th century; and the Parish Clerks, a pair, dated 1601. The last are on permanent loan to the Victoria and Albert Museum, but are withdrawn twice a year for the Company's dinners. "These crowns are of particular interest because they are typical examples of professional embroidery of the period; unquestionably this must be so in the case of the Broderers' own Company, and one of their two crowns is here illustrated, Pl. 11 (the other is in slightly less good condition). It is a crown of tawny-orange velvet and is embroidered with a rich floral pattern in which silver and gold in a great variety of threads and strips have been used, together with coloured silks, also with seed pearls, though these have now almost entirely disappeared; the use of silver strips in place of sequins is noteworthy. The method of embroidery is prinicipally couched work, with a certain amount of raised work. The centre of the crown has the Company's badge of the dove in a shaped cartouche. Inside the crown embroidered in large letters on the same velvet is the motto 'Omnia de Super'." The crown shown is made from a band of stiffened and lined velvet about 2 inches high. It's heavily encrusted with naturalistic fruit-flowers-and-foliage raised embroideries, and in the centre-front the embroidered Broderers' badge looks very stylish (although it also looks like a bird pinned out on a sun-patterned dissection plate). From what I can see of the motto inside the crown it's in large upper-case letters in a Roman serifed font. My first though when I found references to the embroidered crowns of masters and aldermen was "Way cool: how are they made?" My second thought was "Was it just the Broderers Company which used an embroidered crown?", to which the answer appears to be "No". My third was "Here's something that could be used in peerage ceremonies for Laurels and Pelicans (who don't seem to get nearly as much regalia as Knights)." Of course it's more complicated than that. It may be that a Company only ever had one or two crowns which were used by the Company's ranking master(s) at special events. It may have been a late-period-only practice. And it's another thing that would tie the arts and service peerages to the model of the medieval craft guild or livery company: essentially a middle- and artisan-class model with quite different connotations to the aristocratic model of knighthood. But I still think it's neat, and I still think the Pelicans and Laurels get shortchanged on symbolism and regalia, so... Does anyone out there know anything more about masters' crowns, and has anyone used them or known of their use in the SCA? Alys le Chaunster From: The Jones' <lochmor at ix.netcom.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Looking for merchant Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:17:23 -0400 I'm hoping someone can help me. I am looking for a merchant that I have seen at past Pennsic Wars. This lady made the most wonderful coronets. They were very delicate looking some with floral patterns and some just silver. I'm looking to purchase a coronet and always thought that if I ever had occasion to purchase one, I would like one of hers. Unfortunatly, I did not see her booth at this past Pennsic. She made other jewelry too. If you can help me, either reply to the newsgroup or directly to me. Baroness Genevieve Macpherson mka Diane Jones lochmor at ix.netcom.com From: satyrsong at aol.com (SATYRSONG) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Looking for merchant Date: 17 Apr 1998 23:26:12 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com I believe the person you are looking for is Jan Wyman of Crafty Fox. Her wares were there last year, in Ashton's Dragon Heart tent. Some times she goes to the war as a solo merchant, some times not. The last address I have for her is: P O Box 471 E. Hamstead, N.H. 03826 SS Subject: RE: ANST - Vague Laws Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 07:03:22 MST From: John Ruble <ulf at urocor.com> To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> Sir Alrek said: > 2.Engrailed coronets. They may have no more than six "points" or > projections, which may be surmounted by spherical projections of no > more than 1/2 inch diameter, and must have a smoothly concave outline > between each "point", so as to clearly distinguish them from County > coronets. > > In part 2. what does surmounted mean? In this case, I believe it means "topped". Early period coronets show "pearls on a stick" for some coronets. The pearls are stuck on the points. The kingdom sumptuary laws are more concerned with the silhouette than anything else, so this makes sense. Of course, you could always decorate it with pearls. The problem is their were no sumptuary laws recorded until late in period. The rule of thumb was to not make a coronet that was more impressive than those worn by higher ranking nobles. Check out Fox-Davies for a good discussion. Ulf Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:55:01 -0600 From: <marsha.greene at mpan.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: circlets >Hi all! Last week I started a silversmithing course. Since we basicely get >to do what we want and the silver is fairly inexpensive I was planning on >making myself a circlet. Do any of you knowledgable folks know where I can >find some pictures of authentic 13-15 century circlets. Since I'm in >Drachenwald I don't need to think about sumptuary laws that much (I'm a >Lady). >Anna de Byxe I have not found a book dedicated primarily to circlets and crowns as yet (if there is one let me know). Most of the historical inspiration I have received have been from illuminations, paintings, sculptures/funeral statuaries and jewelry/enameling books. But, I would imagine that being in Drachenwald, you would have many primary sources of museum items to consider and possibly from historical crown jewel displays. If you choose to create a closed circlet, you may want to place your closure seam at the side of the circlet, over one ear, instead of at the back of the circlet. This will create less stress on the joint, and may be more comfortable. You can cover the seam up with a bezel-set stone or applique metal. Consider 20g metal or less, else you may be wearing a 'headache'. But, not so lightweight that you compromise structural integrity. I strongly suggest you check with your heralds regarding any sumptuary laws. While they may not be written down, there may be strongly held traditions that the Kingdom follows. And if you are currently in Drachenwald, is it possible that you will not be in the future? Not all Kingdoms will allow you to 'Grandfather' your coronet in your new Kingdom, should you move; even if it was perfectly acceptable where you made it. Save yourself some grief, check ahead. Without wanting to get into a discussion of Sumptuary Laws, my Kingdom, Ansteorra, does not recognize the law of metal circlets for AOA's (Lord/Lady), Anyone can wear one up to 1/2 in. width (though personally, I like the idea of AOA's getting a silver circlet allowed... helps one know how to address the person). Baronies are flat top or 6 pearl point coronets. Counts (1Crown) are Dovetailed or Embattled points and Dukes (2+ Crowns) are Strawberry Leaf Points. Good luck, Bn. Hillary Greenslade Canton of Westgate/Barony of Stargate/Kingdom of Ansteorra Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:09:39 EST From: <Aralyn67 at aol.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: circlets marsha.greene at mpan.com writes: > I have not found a book dedicated primarily to circlets and crowns as yet > (if there is one let me know). Most of the historical inspiration I have > received have been from illuminations, paintings, sculptures/funeral > statuaries and jewelry/enameling books. But, I would imagine that being > in Drachenwald, you would have many primary sources of museum items to > consider and possibly from historical crown jewel displays. I've seen a nice coffee table book by a Northern European Prince (real one not Scadian, but I can't remember of where) detailing the Crown Jewels of Europe. Not everything was period but it had lots of Crowns and Coronets from well within the allowable time table. Not much suited to non Royal peers though. It's a very pretty book, lots of great photos. Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir AEthelmearc Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:41:58 -0500 From: Carol Thomas <scbooks at neca.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: circlets > I've seen a nice coffee table book by a Northern European Prince (real >one not Scadian, but I can't remember of where) detailing the Crown Jewels of >Europe. >Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir Prince Michael of Greece? The title was, of course, Crown Jewels of Europe, from Harper & Rowe. Lady Carllein Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:21:09 +1200 From: Peter Grooby <Peter.Grooby at trimble.co.nz> To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: RE: fastening pearls? Anna Troy [SMTP:Anna.Troy at bibks.uu.se] wrote: > I just have the rugh polishing of my circlet to do before adding the stones > (it'll be four small garnets) I also have some baroque pearls. Now I know > you fasten them with wire that has a small head but that's only on the > front. How do I fasten the wire on the back after I've treaded it through > the hole in the circlet. I can't solder it'cause that would damage the > pearl and I would like to avoid glueing. I have some good pictures of > medieval jewellery but none where I can see the back. Help! I did this recently. They were small pearls, and the holes were very small. I used brass pins (for lace making) for the pearls. I had holes drilled in the circlet. I just bent over half an inch of pin on the back of the circlet and glued in place. There was a lining added to the back of the circlet, so the pins were covered. No documentation for this, I just made it up. Vitale ------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Grooby pgrooby at trimble.co.nz -=0 0=-/ Trimble Navigation http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3069 |_{|}/ / Christchurch, NZ. _| \ Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:57:05 -0800 (PST) From: H B <nn3_shay at yahoo.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: fastening pearls? ---Anna Troy <Anna.Troy at bibks.uu.se> wrote: >I also have some baroque pearls. Now I know > you fasten them with wire that has a small head but that's only on the > front. How do I fasten the wire on the back after I've treaded it through > the hole in the circlet. I can't solder it'cause that would damage the > pearl and I would like to avoid glueing. I have some good pictures of > medieval jewellery but none where I can see the back. Help! > > Anna de Byxe Anna -- Yes, soldering the pins on with the pearls in place will damage the pearls; the trick is, you solder on a pin (length of wire) WITHOUT a head, long enough to pass completely through the pearl with 1/4 to 1/2 inch extra, and then slide the pearl on and trim the wire to more like 1/8 inch (2-3mm) beyond the end. Peen a head on the pin that will hold the pearl there -- like a rivet. Use wire as big as will fit through your drill hole. I don't know if glue was used in period or not, but I wouldn't be at all surprised; it's used currently when fixing half-drilled pearls and other gemstone beads to earring posts and such. Good luck! Harriet Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 17:34:14 -0400 From: Irene leNoir <irene at ici.net> To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: Re: bead work Thora wrote: >Would you please elaborate on the documentation? I am familiar with the >circlet in the painting that was featured in the 1995 Medieval Women >calendar. Irene put it on-line at: > >http://home.ici.net/~beowulf/jessica/beadwork/images/beauty.jpg > >But it's not clear to me whether this detail represents an idealized, >allegorized, or realistic depiction. and Daniella replied: >I'm sorry to say you would have to ask Irene that information. For I am >basing my studies on the actual portraits. It looks to me to be as close to >exact as possible from what all I have studied. Close attention was paid to >detail and jewelry. To fess up... I don't know whether the coronet depicted in the painting in question is allegorical or not. Admittedly, the woman wearing the coronet is a Saint, and I have not yet found a full view of the painting in order to compare the entirety of her outfit to reality. On the other hand, I find myself suspecting that if the coronet were completely made up and not based on some existing example, the artist wouldn't have gone to the trouble to so accurately depict the separate beads and the different methods of construction that they are put together with. My opinion only... add salt to taste. Jessica Clark SCA: Irene leNoir From: rlobinske at aol.com (Richard Lobinske) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Date: 19 Dec 2000 18:41:50 GMT Subject: Re: Circlets >Does anyone have a source for metal circlets. I used to deal with Ingasbo >but all I get now is an 404 error. You can make simple circlets out of strip stirling silver (I use 1/4 or 1/2 inch). I order from Rio Grande, but any other source will do. After determining desired size, you can hand form around an anvil horn or a lenght of pipe. The ends can be soldered together for a fixed size, or you can use round-nose pliers to turn the ends in a small loop, then thread some cloth or leather through to tie off. Victor Hildebrand vonn Koln mka Richard Lobinske Trimaris From: Tanya Guptill <tguptill at teleport.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Making a Coronet--new web page Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:37:53 -0700 Noble friends, HL Conor O'droi has webbed the process he used for making a coronet for me. It can be found at http://www.teleport.com/~sca/conor/coronet.html , if you are interested. Warmly, Mira Silverlock From: Bert Garwood <garwoodbert at qwest.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: baronial coronet needed- Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 19:50:40 -0500 For really pretty stuff, see: http://www.ne.infi.net/~fcderosa/ Of course, it is priced accordingly. Berwyn From: Tanya Guptill <tguptill at teleport.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: baronial coronet needed- Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:28:50 -0700 You may want to check out: http://www.dragonsjewels.com/crown1.htm http://www.signetring.com/Coronet/Coronet_how_to_make/coronet_how_to_make.htm http://www.teleport.com/~sca/conor/coronet.html Mira Silverlock From: "Elaine Koogler" <ekoogler011 at home.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] OT....Search for a Coronet Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:26:00 -0500 >I am seeking a source or crafter for Coronets. Any and all > sugestons welcome !!! > Aethelwulf If you are looking for early period designs, go to The Crafty Celts. Master Vortigern does wonderful early period work...fairly expensive, but exquisitely done. Another really good source is Drachenstein Treasures. Master Lothar does wonderful stuff as well, though later in period. Drachenstein can be reached at www.dragonsjewels.com, and the Crafty Celt at www.craftycelts.com. Under no circumstances should you have anything to do with Jan Wyman at Crafty Fox. I have found her to be a dishonest merchant who doesn't live up to her contracts. I have yet to receive a ring that I ordered 4 years ago...stupidly paid in full in advance...despite numerous requests, one in person, for either the ring or my money returned. Kiri From: Billfog1 at aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:44:57 EST To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Coronets... I got my coronet from Master Lothar at Drachenstein Treasures and it is absolutely beautiful! It was done on time and the price was fair. I definitely recommend him! Suzanne From: Burke McCrory <burkemc at cox.net> Date: May 30, 2006 10:22:10 PM CDT To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Warlord news I though I would post this site again as these people make some very nice simple "light weight" coronets. http://www.ingasbo.com/ Burke Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2006 14:45:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Katheline van Weye <kat_weye at yahoo.com> Subject: [Sca-cooks] OT: Coronet Merchant Recommendation To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> It's time for me to begin the search for a coronet merchant as my husband and I are halfway through our landed baroness/baron term and will need personal coronets when we step down (should Their Majesties deem us worthy of the Bannthegn/Thegn positions at that time). I haven't really seen the style of coronet I like from any of the artisans in Atenveldt so I thought I would search further out. My preference is for either a pierced metal or etched "lacy" design as my ultimate goal is to have a coronet with a traditional Elizabethan blackwork design on it. I find the various "vine" coronets out there to be quite lovely but with all of the soldering on them I am very worried about breakage so I do not think those styles will do for me. I do not care for the hinged coronets as our Barony has one set of those and all they do is rip out my hair. The Apples and Flowers Coronet on Craft Fox at http://www.craftyfox.com/coronets/sterling-silver.html is a good example of the pierced design that I like. Drachenstein Treasures also shows a pierced coronet at http://www.dragonsjewels.com/bar31.jpg. A simple etched coronet on Drachenstein Treasures is at http://www.dragonsjewels.com/bar45.jpg. Any suggestions or recommendations for merchants? I turn to you all because though I see a lovely coronet on a website, it doesn't guarantee that the merchant is able to produce such a coronet again in the time frame we need or with the same quality. But you all know which merchants have done well by you and which haven't so I hope you can help me with this quest. Katheline van Weye Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2006 20:15:40 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT: Coronet Merchant Recommendation To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> I have one of Drachenstein's coronets...not one of the ones you showed, but one that is a Pelican/Laurel combination. I really enjoy working with them...Master Lothar is a consummate craftsman and takes a great deal of pride in his work. I can't be sure, but I believe that Crafty Fox is the company I had a great deal of trouble with some years back. I ordered a ring from them...stupidly prepaid for the whole thing, and never got my ring or my money. This transaction happened at Pennsic. Their work is exquisite, which is why this bothered me so much. I have purchased several Pelican medallions and a coronet from them...so was really stunned when they treated me in such a cavalier fashion. I know that other folks from Atlantia had problems with them as well. If it were I, I would go with Drachenstein...great work, reliable and honest. Kiri Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 08:23:01 -0400 From: wildecelery at aol.com Subject: [Sca-cooks] Coronet To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Try Willofyre Studios as well. Mistress Safia does stunning work. www.willofyre.com -Ardenia Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 22:01:06 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT: Coronet Merchant Recommendation To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Michael Gunter wrote: > You might like the work of my squire's lady. She is getting to be pretty well > known for her coronets. She made both the coronets you usually saw me wear > and knows how to do hinged right. You know my hair and it has never gotten > caught in mine. > > http://home.texoma.net/~bperkins/gallery.html > > The coronets are posted in the jewelry section and you can see she can > fit a variety of styles. > > Gunthar Gunthar, Her work is wonderful! I'll keep her pages bookmarked in case I run across anyone else who needs a pointy hat! Kiri From: Chris Zakes <dontivar at gmail.com> Date: November 10, 2007 10:22:43 PM CST To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Ducal Perogative At 11:15 AM 11/10/2007, Robin wrote: > "robert segrest" wrote: >> At any rate, I am continually amazed that a system of governance that >> theoretically should be one of the worst possible methods for choosing >> leaders seems to usually produce high quality administration, not >> only from our monarchs, but also from the officers they appoint. > > The SCA is a volunteer organization, and the principles of government are > different. The essential control over the government is not the > vote, but the fact that we can always walk away. Precisely. Engraved on the inside of the Crowns of Caid are the words: "You rule because they believe." That's a good thing for *any* Crown to keep in mind. -Tivar Moondragon <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris coronets-msg Page 12 of 12