dyeing-msg - 3/19/08

Dyeing techniques and discussion. Both modern and period dyes.

NOTE: See also the files: green-art, mordants-msg, washing-msg, woad-msg.

KEYWORDS: dyes dyeing medieval mordants woad indigo madder saffron lichens techniques overdyeing

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: lisch at mentor.com (Ray Lischner)
Date: 17 Jan 90 22:14:29 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics Corp., Beaverton, OR
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

My lady wife, aoibhinn ni luan, recommends "A Weaver's Garden,"
by Rita Buchanan (1987, Interweave Press, ISBN 0-934026-28-9).
A Weaver's Garden covers the use of plants in fabric making,
including dyeing.  The time period covered includes the SCA period,
and more.  Included are some color pictures of the results, showing
that diverse, bright colors can be obtained from period dyes.

Not all natural dyes are period, and Ms. Buchanan mentions
the history of the plants and their uses.

There are also chapters on using plants for cleaning, plants
as used in tools (such as Fullers' Teasle for carding wool),
and making your own garden.

The references and suggested readings include technical articles
for those who are interested in chemistry.
-- 
Ray Lischner        UUCP: {uunet,decwrl}!mntgfx!lisch

From: DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca ("Ross M. Dickson")
Date: 20 Jan 91 18:16:00 GMT

Greetings to the Rialto from Sarra Graeham, courtesy of Lord Angus:

In Digest v.4 no.25, Herr Peder Klingrode (Leif Euren) writes:
> In fact, in the early Middle Ages, blue dye for textiles were hard
> (not to say impossible) to get, while green was easy to come by; while
> quite the opposite was true for paints.  Thus, a person with a Azure
> coat-of-arms wore a green tabard and flew a green flag: the colours
> were considered equal.

My knowledge of the several technologies that Herr Peder brings together
here are not perfect, but my gut reaction is that this statement is an
example of modern misunderstanding of period technologies.

First off, it is my understanding that the woad plant, which produces a
dye chemically identical to indigo, was available and used as a dye in the
British Isles from well before the Roman times.  (Can someone correct me
on this?  I have references to it being used as a pigment from the 9th C.)
I'm sure that woad or indigo, indigo having been imported since at least
the first Crusade, was used in the Bayeux Tapestry to produce a slightly
greenish -- but unmistakable -- blue.  Furthermore, most blue pigments
available for painting at that time -- indigo, azurite, copper blues --
had more or less greenish casts, so a greenish-blue dye would not be con-
sidered out of place.  So-called azure or ultramarine blue, made of ground
and processed lapis lazuli, could not be manufactured in Europe until the
13th C., and was an imported luxury until that time.

Secondly, "coats-of-arms" as such did not really exist until the mid to
late 12th C.  Admittedly, great lords probably had battle flags and livery
colours before then, but not in the same profusion.  (Perhaps one or more
of the heralds on the net could provide better information.)  By the 12th
C., indigo dye was available all over Europe.  In fact, I have been told
by dyers that good greens are much harder to get than blues, given the
availability of indigo, and indigo dye with an overdyeing of yellow is
necessary to be able to make the best greens. 
 
Herr Peder (or anyone else who might be listening), do you have more evi- 
dence to support your statement?  My case is merely circumstantial, and 
I would happily be corrected by someone who knew better. 
 
     Sarra Graeham, Canton of Greyfells    |  Heather Fraser
     Barony of the Skraeling Althing       |  Kingston, Ontario, CANADA
     Principality of Ealdormere, Midrealm  |  c/o dicksnr at qucdn.queensu.ca

From: pears at latcs1.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Date: 21 Jan 91 05:52:43 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

timm at hoss.unl.edu (Tim Myers) writes:
>everyone. Then we hit upon an idea, DMC floss is very consistent in its
>colors and numbering scheme, and you can find DMC floss all over the place.
>What would happen if kingdom level sewing guild got together with the
>current royalty and heirs and decided what OFFICIAL CALONTIR PURPURE AND OR
>were? Especially since there was a request a twelfth night for more Calontir
>fighting tabards. Wouldn't it be nice if they all looked the same?

While the idea of uniformity is attractive to the modern eye, I
suspect that in the SCA period, even if you take it to extend from
600-1650AD, the colour of cloth would have varied considerably
from batch to batch.

The dyeing of cloth with natural dyes is a complex task, and
fixing some of the more rare colours, such as purple, made them
expensive during the mediaeval period. I find it difficult to 
believe that any group prior to the 18th century would have placed 
much importance on the exact shade. To do so would require the
establishment of uniforms and hence bulk production of cloth for
a specific purpose, which to the best of my knowledge is
really outside the scope of the recreation.

I suggest you all just buy local purple, as you would have done
in the period, and pride yourselves on the period look of your
soldiery.

Lord Arenwald von Hagenburg
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci Dept                ACSNET : pears at latcs1.oz
La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083.
VIC, AUSTRALIA                                  "Well here we all are then."
    Ph (03) 479-1144                                            -ME
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: bloch at thor.ucsd.edu (Steve Bloch)
Date: 21 Jan 91 07:37:19 GMT

DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca (Ross M. Dickson, really Sarra Greaham) writes:
>First off, it is my understanding that the woad plant, which produces a
>dye chemically identical to indigo....

"Blue may be dyed with woad alone, which would give a permanent but
not a deep blue; but if indigo be mixed with it, a very rich colour
will be obtained."

"Take a quarter of a pound of indigo, half a pound of pot ash, a
quarter of a pound of madder, and three handfuls of bran: let them
boil for half an hour, and then settle; with this ley grind the indigo
in a copper bowl: put this in an old vat of indigo, or on a new one of
woad, and it will make it fit for use in twenty-four hours."

>Furthermore, most blue pigments
>available for painting at that time -- indigo, azurite, copper blues --
>had more or less greenish casts, so a greenish-blue dye would not be con-
>sidered out of place.

"Receipt to dye 8 lbs. of Deep Blue in Linen or Cotton.
Take 4 ounces of indigo and grind fine, 2 ounces of madder, 8 ounces
of copperas, 8 ounces of pot ash, 4 ounces of lime, and 1 ounce of
alum: mix it all together with 5 gallons of soft water...."

>In fact, I have been told
>by dyers that good greens are much harder to get than blues, given the
>availability of indigo, and indigo dye with an overdyeing of yellow is
>necessary to be able to make the best greens.

"To dye Cotton Yarn a Deep Blue.
Take one pound of logwood chipped fine or pounded and boil it in a
sufficient quantity of water till the whole colouring matter is
extracted, then take about half a gallon of this liquor and dissolve
it in an ounce of verdigris ... or if you want an elegant green, boil
hickory bark in the liquor and it will produce it."

"Saxon greens" are produced by dying with indigo sulphate after a
tin-and-oak-bark mordant.
Three other greens, however, are described as a blue dye followed by
a yellow, or vice versa.

All quotations are taken from "The Arcana of Arts and Sciences", by M. 
Parker; this is a primary source, but only from 1824, and written in 
the U.S. so some of the plants may not exist in Europe. 
 
--  
Stephen Bloch 
Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
>sca>Caid>Calafia>St.Artemas
bloch at cs.ucsd.edu

From: leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren)
Date: 21 Jan 91 09:02:09 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth:
> ... I like the idea of telling people to match to a particular color
> of DMC embroidery floss.  Reason: have you ever looked through your
> kingdom's regalia?  There are several sets of surcoats/cloaks/etc.
> in the West Kingdom Regalia, most of which never get worn, largely
> because a hideous shade of green was used in their construction.

It's sad to see regaila unused, beacuse our modern eyes think the
colours are "hideous".  On the other hand: people in the Middle Ages
would have loved yarn and cloth of consistent colour.

> Think how much easier looking for "DMC #345" would be for local
> costumers trying to make surcoats for members of their shire or barony
> who were to be part of a kingdom levy or shieldwall.  The color would
> be instantly identifiable to anyone glancing around as "part of my unit".

As it were (and this is my speculation) they reduced the numbers of
heraldic colours to allow for deviation, so that and soldier could
tell a friend, even if he had changed to a new tabard.

Thus, I don't see any fault in recommending a shade-by-number for
"official" items; be it paint, dyed textile or others.
We shouldn't make it a law, though.

Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth:
> ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within
> reason, in period!  (Not perfect matches, perhaps, but close enough
> for the casual observer to not see a glaring difference....) Surely
> weavers traded formulae and hanks of threads as samples?

Consistency in shade of colour is *VERY* difficult to obtain if one
has to resort to plant-dying, even in our Current Middle Ages, when we
in fact know how to make pecise records of previous dyings.  And in
the real Middle Ages, dyers did *NOT* trade their formulaes, as they
were their wealth.

But the again, shades "close enough for the casual observer to not see
a glaring difference" would be the pride of every master dyer, and
they certainly did appear during the Middle Ages.

        Herr Peder Klingrode            +---------------------------+
         Canton of Holmgard             | Leif Euren                |
         Barony of Nordmark             |                           |
         Principality of Drachenwald    | leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se  |
         Kingdom of the East            +---------------------------+

From: leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren)
Date: 21 Jan 91 17:55:42 GMT

Herr Peder Klingrode greets all Gentle of the Rialto: Frid vare med Eder!

Lord Arenwald von Hagenburg (pears at latcs1.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)) writeth:
> I find it difficult to believe that any group prior to the 18th
> century would have placed much importance on the exact shade.

So do I, but I also argue that a person who could afford to outfit his
entire staff in a uniformly coloured livery, would do so to show off
his wealth: everybody could see that he had bought all that fabric at
the same time!

Sarra Graeham (Heather Fraser) writeth:
> ... the woad plant, which produces a dye chemically identical to
> indigo, was available and used as a dye in the British Isles from well
> before the Roman times.

And it was used in Scandinavia, too, in the 10th C.

> I'm sure that woad or indigo <...> produce a slightly greenish -- but
> unmistakable -- blue.

Depending of what kind of metal the kettle is of, you may get many
strange shades when dying with indigo.

> In fact, I have been told by dyers that good greens are much harder to
> get than blues, given the availability of indigo, and indigo dye with
> an overdyeing of yellow is necessary to be able to make the best
> greens.

If you (or rather, the dyers) by "good greens" mean "_beautiful_
greens", you're absolutely right.  And this is not even subjectively:
everybody (well, _almost_ everybody) will admit that yellow over-
coloured with indigo is more beautiful than naturally dyed green.

> Herr Peder, do you have more evidence to support your statement?

I'm sorry to say that I no evidence for my statements; it was just
something I read in a book on Heraldry, and I don't even remember
which (I'll have a look in my library, and I'll be back with a
reference if I find one).
I, too, would happily be corrected by someone who knew better.

> ... ground and processed lapis lazuli, could not be manufactured in
> Europe until the 13th C.

I don't really believe you. But then again, I may be wrong.
Could you explain why this was so?

    Herr Peder Klingrode, Canton of Holmgard    | Leif Euren
    Barony of Nordmark                          | Stockholm, Sweden
    Principality of Drachenwald, East           | leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se

From:    Chaz Butler 
To:      "Ross M. Dickson
Date: 23-Jan-91 04:59pm
Subject: Re: 'official' colors

There is a woman at Pennsic every year with a dyer's wheel.  This has formula
from plants native to Britain and Europe fixed with various mineral salts. 
The colors range from 5 shades of magenta, through hot pinks, bright oranges,
lime and electric greens, vivid blues, indigos, electric blues, and deep
purples, as well as browns and puces.  If she, with only a couple of years of
experimenting with plants native to Europe and a dyer's cloth can come up with
many shades, and duplicate them, then the dyers of Europe surely did the same.

From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) 
Date: 22 Jan 91 18:39:04 GMT 
Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA 
 
In article <9101210902.AAalex.stacken.kth.se22365 at alex.stacken.kth.se>, 
leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes: 
> Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth: 
> > ... I like the idea of telling people to match to a particular color 
> > of DMC embroidery floss. 
>  
> Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth: 
> > ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within 
> > reason, in period! 
>  
> But the again, shades "close enough for the casual observer to not see
> a glaring difference" would be the pride of every master dyer, and
> they certainly did appear during the Middle Ages.

I have seen the effects of dying a series of hanks in the same dye bath, they
all came out a different shade and the dyer admitted that predicting the
shade was next to impossible. I take this as evidence that reproducing a shade
was and is so difficult as to be futile to attempt. A close match should be
fairly simple, provided that only one dye bath is needed. Overdying such as
has been mentioned for green would make a close much very difficult.

The next thing to remember is that period dyes are rarely 'fast'. Most dyes
will fade in the sun, leach in the washing and bleed into the adjacent cloth.
A set of tabards will age the same only if they were all made of the same
materials, dyed using the processes. Given the multitude of processes to
obtain specific colours, and the inherent secrecy of the dyers, it is highly
unlikely that cloth from different sources will behave in the same way.

I harbour a deep suspiscion that the ancient tartans of complex design were
originally of simple design but suffered badly from bleeding of dyes before
someone recorded the design. I suspect that the concept of fimbriation
originated in the same way.

The existance of fast bright colours is relatively modern but deeply ingrained
in our culture. Plastics and cartoons are the biggest culprits as far as I am
concerned.

                Fiacha
                Aquaterra, AnTir

From: atterlep at vela.acs.oakland.edu (Alan Terlep)
Date: 22 Jan 91 15:37:22 GMT
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI

leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes:

>Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth:

>> Think how much easier looking for "DMC #345" would be for local
>> costumers trying to make surcoats for members of their shire or barony 
>> who were to be part of a kingdom levy or shieldwall.  The color would
>> be instantly identifiable to anyone glancing around as "part of my unit".
>
>As it were (and this is my speculation) they reduced the numbers of
>heraldic colours to allow for deviation, so that and soldier could
>tell a friend, even if he had changed to a new tabard.

  My first response on reading this was "arrgh!"  The entire point of heraldry
is to make sure that people are recognizable on the battlefield.  If every
member of a group is wearing their heraldic badge there should be no problem
with identification.  In fact, most of the heraldic devices and badges we get 
are rejected simply because they aren't clearly recognizable at a distance.  
Clarity is one of the prime criteria for deciding the acceptability of a piece
of heraldry.
  That said, there are a limited number of colors for just the reason Herr
Peter suggests.  In fact, the variation possible in heraldic colors is circum-
stantial evidence that there was difficulty in standardizing colors.  It does
bother me at times that I enjoy an art form whose spectrum is covered by a set
of Crayola markers, but anyone who has seen the "Heraldry" in the Pern source-
book (from a fantasy workd by Anne McCaffery) will understand the problems
with
"Per pale blue and light blue, in base an erupting volcano brown."  

Lord Fairfax Aluricson
Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor
Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm
atterlep at vela.acs.oakland.edu

From: com259h at vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Date: 22 Jan 91 03:26:53 GMT

leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes:
> Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth:
>> ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within
>> reason, in period!  (Not perfect matches, perhaps, but close enough
>> for the casual observer to not see a glaring difference....) Surely
>> weavers traded formulae and hanks of threads as samples?
>
> Consistency in shade of colour is *VERY* difficult to obtain if one
> has to resort to plant-dying, even in our Current Middle Ages, when we
> in fact know how to make pecise records of previous dyings.  And in
> the real Middle Ages, dyers did *NOT* trade their formulaes, as they
> were their wealth.

        My own affermation of this is mundane, but I think relevant. An
uncle of my mother worked for a textile company which performed all of
it's own dying, using dyes that it developed itself. My great-uncle was
involved in the formulating of these dyes and kept 2 books of the dye
formulas. One book was the correct one which he worked from and was
kept under strict security. The other book was not kept under strict
security, and the formulas were incorrect. This was the version which
my uncle's employer preferred his competitors to see.

        Were I a period weaver who had developed a particularly appealing
color, I'd try to keep it's formula, and hence the supply of cloth of that
color to myself. Why provide my competitors with income that should be mine
through my developing said color.

                                        In service, Wulfgang Brachwalder.

           Bull at vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au  OR  com259h at monu1.cc.monash.oz
                      Alias: Gareth Bull, The Opal Dragon

From: BERDANJ at YALEVM.BITNET (Amoret of Dragonship Haven)
Date: 24 Jan 91 14:40:39 GMT

Amoret of Dragonship Haven sends greetings to the Rialto and two notes of
interest....

1) Modern-day dying cannot get consistent results from bolt to bolt of fabric
either; it is usually necessary to buy all from one bolt in order to get a
consistent color in a large quantity of fabric.  This is a problem in
everything from 100% cotton to 100% polyester.  It is likewise a problem with
thread - different spools of the "same" color are not necessarily identical. 
I
find it unlikely, then, that period dyers could have gotten anything like
perfect consistency from dye-lot to dye-lot.

From: KGANDEK at mitvmc.mit.EDU (Kathryn Gandek) 
Date: 23 Jan 91 21:58:44 GMT 

Greetings from Catrin o'r Rhyd For 
 
After reading the speculation on dye consistency and dyer secretiveness, I 
asked a friend, Lady Elaine Courtenay, who has looked into period dying and 
has 
recreated period dye recipes. 
 
According to her research, dye recipes were carefully guarded and handed down 
from master to apprentice until the 16th century.  During the 16th century, 
articles with dye recipes appear sporadically until 1548, when an entire book
detailing dye recipes was published.  So as far as secretiveness goes, it seems
to be true until the 16th century.

As far as consistency, Elaine had the following comments.  The dyers worked
with consistent methods and recipes.  Furthermore, they knew about variations
in ingredients dependent on from where they came.  For example, it might take
more cochineal to make a certain red if the cochineal came from place A instead
of place B.  Does that mean that they could replicate colors to the point of
exact matches as in the aforementioned embroidery floss color example?  She
doesn't think they could have.  On the other hand, she believes that they could
have come quite close.  In her own recreation of dyes, she has come up with
very similar--although not identical--results, and she hasn't trained with a
guild for years.

Catrin (me) has one comment on the subject.  As I usually prefer that yarn for
a project I am making match exactly without variation, I buy it all out of
the same batch.  The differences are sometimes subtle, sometimes blatant, but
even modern technology doesn't always duplicate perfectly from batch to batch.

Catrin o'r Rhyd For            Kathryn Gandek
Barony of Carolingia           Boston area
East Kingdom                    kgandek%mitvmc.bitnet at mitvma.mit.edu

From: DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca ("Ross M. Dickson")
Date: 27 Jan 91 17:53:00 GMT

Belated greetings to the Rialto from Sarra Graeham, who has been marking
Grade 10 Science Exams, and hence has not been to the Rialto since last
Sunday ...

Herr Peder Klingrode (Leif Euren), quoting me, writes:
> > ... ground and processed lapis lazuli, could not be manufactured in
> > Europe until the 13th C.
> I don't really believe you. But then again, I may be wrong.
> Could you explain why this was so?

Lapis lazuli, although a beautiful deep blue when unground, is mostly
composed of a great deal of colourless stone interspersed with bits of
deep blue.  When ground and unprocessed, the pigment is a dull blueish
grey, and water precipitation, the usual method for purifying pigments,
won't separate out the blue.  To separate the deep blue pigment requires
"mixing the powdered lapis with a paste of wax and oil and resin, and
kneading the mixture under water or lye until the blue came out in the
water"  (Daniel V. Thompson, _The Materials and Techniques of Medieval
Painting_, Dover Books, 1956.)  The paste would be put through several
washes, with each wash becoming less blue than the last, and it was the
custom of corrupt druggists of the 15th C. to sell bags of Ultramarine
with the best blue on top, but the grey washings at the bottom.

The earliest European recipes for doing this appear in the 13th C., al-
though apparently the Persians had been making Ultramarine Blue since
"early times" and exporting it to Europe.  Just another example of how
technologically advanced that part of the world was compared to Europe
at the time.

     Sarra Graeham, Canton of Greyfells    |  Heather Fraser
     Barony of the Skraeling Althing       |  Kingston, Ontario, CANADA
     Principality of Ealdormere, Midrealm  |  c/o dicksnr at qucdn.queensu.ca

From: 6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.COM ("KATMAN.WNETS385")
Date: 13 Jun 91 15:39:00 GMT

Lady Therica amused us with a tale of documenting
butter (and flavored butters) as used in period. She then tells of being told
green is not period for clothes.
   There is a portrait by Raphael (I'll post the actual date if anyone needs
it) painted sometime between 1450 and 1500 of "The Woman in Green." The
painting has a few other titles, I forget them all. This is of an Italian woman
wearing a GREEN dress. The dress is bottle green (looks like silk velvet, yum)
with rusty colored trim at the neck and shoulders, and large dark blue over
sleeves. It is worn over a white chemise with spanish-style blackwork bands. I
also beleive (have to check this out at home) that descriptions of clothes worn
by Beatrice d'Este and her sister Isabella list some green dresses.
   I do not know if green was period for early times, certainly I have seen
tapestries with green threads (trees, leaves, etc. - see the Unicorn Hunt
tapestries, et al) in them. "Prior to the advent of synthetic dyes, the
majority of good clear greens, oranges, and purples were produced by overdying
one primary color with another. Thus, the very early greens resulted from
overdyeing indigo with a clear yellow dye or vice versa. Some of these greens
were satisfactory for long exposure to light, and others were not." (Liles, p.
145)
   The problem is that "most natural yellow dyes are more or less fugitive to
light. It is for this reason that many old textiles show only weak yellows,
oranges, and greens." (Liles, p. 33) Thus, while green may have been worn, the
garments would eventually become more blue than green. Of course, if the
substance used to dye something yellow was not grown near where you lived, you
couldn't have worn green at all. Common yellows used were Saffron (Crocus
sativus), Turmeric (Curcuma longa), and Weld (Reseda luteola). I am not sure
exactly how much access groups of people would have had to all these
substances.

   The book I am quoting is
Liles, J.N. 1990._The Art and Craft of Natural Dyeing_. Knoxville, TN: The
   University of Tennessee Press.
ISBN: 0-87049-669-7 (cloth) 0-87049-670-0 (paper)
   A period source for dye recipes is
Rosetti, G. ]1548| 1969. _The Plictho of Instructions in the Art of the Dyers._
   (Translation of the first edition of 1548 by Edelstein and Borghetty).
   Cambridge: M.I.T. Press.

   The Plictho is not in print, but can be obtained by libraries through
inter-library loan.

Winifred de Schyppewallebotham

From: jane at STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM (Jane Beckman)
Date: 1 Nov 91 23:26:51 GMT

Sigh, not another pink/purple war.  And here I thought this thing was 
reserved for petty costumer department folks at the Renaissance Faire...

It's very easy to prove that pink is period.  Take a look at paintings of 
the period.  Lordie, look at all those *vibrant pink* gowns!  Who said the 
Middle Ages were drab?  This caused a bit of scandal recently in art circles,
too, when they restored some of the lower murals of the Cistine Chapel and 
found all these people who were wearing vibrantly-colored clothes.  The art 
historians are now claiming that the restoration process must have somehow 
changed the colors that Michaelangelo used, because the murals were "supposed to" be gloomy...

Of course, the term "pink" still referred to a plant, so they couldn't use 
the word itself.  But then, yellow hair wasn't referred to as "blond" yet, 
either.

ROYAL purple is made from murex.  There are lots of other ways to get "sad" 
purples and various lavenders from natural dyes.

  -Jilara of Carrowlea  [jane at swdc.stratus.com]

From: 6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.COM ("KATMAN.WNETS385")
Date: 4 Dec 91 15:28:00 GMT

A while back someone asked about the results of my dyeing with indigo via a
urine bath at Pennsic. It sort of worked. I had only a gallon of urine (I
didn't go advertising, and the crew of folks I camped with was not interested
in contributing. It was left to me, Ottar and the valiant-and-pregnant
Orianna). Because this was in an 8 gallon pot, it evaporated quickly and was
too shallow for my purposes.
 The fabric did get blue, but I could not do the repeated dips needed to get it
to be a rich, deep blue (dipping in such a shallow pool of liquid disturbed the
sediment at the bottom which then changed the chemical balance in the bath,
rendering it useless for dyeing). When I have an outdoor place to do this
again, I will attempt it again. Next year I'll save up urine in advance.
 The fabric smells really bad (I only washed it in Ivory liquid and vinegar). I
can't imagine wearing a garment that smelled like that. Maybe I'll try the
non-urine alkalai vats they used ("take ashes of lees..." lye anyone?) and see
if that smells better.

Winifred de Schyppewallebotham
(that's Middle English for "From the valley with the stream where the sheep in
their pretty blue fleeces were washed")(Nolite Secundo Flumine Natare)
Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY

Re: pigments
6 Feb 92 
From: amanda at visix.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Visix Software, Inc.

I second the recommendation of Auldhaefen Associates.  They are by far
the most economical place I have found to buy period pigments, spices,
and all sorts of other Nifty Stuff.  They are non-profit, and act as
a "materials broker."  That is to say, they arrange to buy a bunch of
something, repackage it into smaller, more convenient packages (after
all, who needs 10 pounds of dragon's blood resin :)?), and resells it
at just enough to cover their costs.

They're also just real nice folks.

Arwen ferch Morgan
Ponte Alto, Atlantia

Bridge to Academe 2
21 May 92 
From: carl at silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Organization???

northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand) writes:
>
>....[I]t is not necessary to limit the offer to just history
>departments.  There are also classics departments and medieval
>studies departments.  In addition there are individual researchers
>in art and music departments....
>
>[I]t is simply false that academics are uninterested in things
>which are of interest to us.  For example, musicologists are very
>interested in the music that we are interested in.  (Some people
>get Ph.D. degrees for doing music history research and reconstructions
>of music within our period.)  Art historians are also intersted in
>our period.  There is very little that the SCA is interested in which
>will not find an academic in some department in some university who
>is also interested in it.  
 
Just as a for-instance, here's something I -- and I suspect many 
others in the Society -- would love to have available as a resource, 
but could never (unless I won the lottery) put together for myself.  
And it's a project that would be appropriate for PhD level research 
in any of several fields -- Art History, Textiles, History of 
Technology, Theater Arts....
 
A study of period dyes, with information for each dye on its 
geographic distribution (& how it varied over time), its expense 
(& how it varied over time), and other availablity-over-time data, 
along with a listing of the pantone (or whatever standard system) 
colors each dye could be expected to achieve with various fabrics.
 
The amount of research involved in puting together & documenting 
such a compendium of information would be formidable.  But 
imagine being able to walk into a fabric store with your pantone 
chart & buy fabric *knowing* that the material, the weave, and 
the color are authentic, and that your persona could have 
afforded it. 
 
Alexander of Kiev
 
Carl Alexander
carl at silver.lcs.mit.edu

Period dyes...
27 May 92 
From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

Beth.Appleton at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:
> CJA> A study of period dyes, with information for each dye on its 
> CJA> geographic distribution (& how it varied over time), its expense 
> CJA> (& how it varied over time), and other availablity-over-time data, 
> CJA> along with a listing of the pantone (or whatever standard system) 
> CJA> colors each dye could be expected to achieve with various fabrics.
>I realize that this is trivial compared to the project you describe, but
>there are a couple of sources.  I need to go find my book, but one of my  
>dye books *has* a color chart.  Some of the dyes are post-period, but it  
>does give you some natural dyes to look at.  Also, there is a nice  
>article on kermes and cochineal in __Cloth_and_Clothing_in_Medieval_      
>_Europe,_a_Collection_of_Essays.... (I'll go find the editor on that one  
>if someone needs it.  
	Please please. grovel even :)
I saw a book in the Wellesley library while I was a student there, 
unfortunately I don't even remember the title, next time I'm up there I'll
have to track the durn thing down. It had color plates showing what colors
resulted from various ancient and medieval dies such as Murex and kermes.
Tyrian purple isn't what we call purple today, its more of a 
choir-robe-burgundy. Ecclesiastical catalogs are great sources for medieval
style stuff like candelabras and silk brocades btw.
	There is an article in the Fall 1989 issue of Spin-Off about 
medieval dying by Mary Hill. She was asked by an archaeologist to help 
work out the dyes and dying methods used in some fabrics which had been 
recovered from the Mary Rose, one of Henry VIII's battleships sunk in 1547
and recently raised.
	"He would need a supply of wool, dyed to medieval recipes, which he
could use to develop a technique for extracting the dye from the wool. the 
extract would then be analyzed in a machine which would give a printout of
peaks and troughs. The printouts for these known recipes would then be used
to decode the printouts for unknown dye extracts. It would seem easier to
analyze solutions of dyes to generate the printouts to be used as standards,
but Paul felt that the dye is changed during the dying process; the whole 
operation had to be performed to mimic the condition of the dye on the
artifacts."
	The whole story is fascinating, and at the end of the article she
gives directions and recipes wheeeeee! "Three weeks before your dye day, 
collect urine and put it somewhere in a sealed container where no one will
notice the smell." 	I haven't actually tried this yet :)

	The issue is still available from Interweave Press, the phone #
is (303) 669-7672. The same issue has an article about primitive Norwegian
sheep :) I've had a subscripton for about 6 years, mostly it's modern stuff,
but every so often there is a great article for SCA types.
							-Ilaine
-- 
Liz Stokes         | Ilaine's EZ-Garb Workshop ....
Ilaine de Cameron  | "Take your sheep and convince him to take off all his 
                   | wool and give it too you. Try challenging him to a game
ilaine at panix.com   | of strip-nine-man's-morris. Sheep are stupid, you'll win."

Date: 17 Jun 92 
From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

        Yaakov brought up an excellent point about many period recipies and
such calling for things for philosophical rather than empirical reasons.
That was pretty much what was on my mind when I expressed skepticism about
the importance of urine from different types of people. However, there is
and interesting article in the latest issue of Spin-Off (which came yesterday).
It seems this spinning guild tried an experiment. Each member took 1 oz of
tulip tree leaves, 2 ounces of wool, and a precise list of instructions. 
incredible range in color variation: dark greenish greys, pinkish beiges,
reddish tans, and yellow. The only difference was in the water (members had
streams, wells, or spring water). Whew. Brewers use mineral additives to
reproduce the flavor or particular beers made from especially hard water, I
guess the authenticity-crazed dyer should do the same :)
                                                    -Ilaine
-- 
Liz Stokes         | Ilaine's EZ-Pregnancy Test 
Ilaine de Cameron  | ... "Now take the skein of handspun yarn out of the 
                   | dyebath. If it is green, you are with child, if it
ilaine at panix.com   | is blue, you are not."

From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cooking fires, woad, and other queries 
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 93 01:08:33 GMT

Unto Stephen Bloch does Pagan le Chaunster send Greetings!

  > From "The Arcana of Arts and Sciences, or, Farmers' & Mechanics'
  > Manual: containing a great variety of Valuable Receipts and Useful
  > Discoveries, some of which were Never Before Published," M. Parker
  > 1824:
  >    Blue may be dyed with woad alone, which would give a permanent
  >    but not a deep blue; but if indigo be mixed with it, a very
  >    rich colour will be obtained.

This sort of comment about the fastness of woad and the brilliance of indigo 
turns up all over the place.  I must admit I'd expected a dark/dull blue from 
woad, though.  (It's coming on:  I'm still working on it.)

  > The author then goes on to describe ten recipes for blue fabric-dyes
  > of various qualities, using 1824 frontier technology.  In addition to
  > woad, indigo, and bran, some common ingredients are madder, potash,
  > weld (?), alum, and white tartar.  

Weld is a plant which gives one of the clearest and most lasting yellow dyes.  
I'm surprised to see it in a list of blue-making ingredients, but I prefer 
red-blues to yellow-blues.

Madder is the traditional red dye (with madder, weld and woad you can get a 
long way).  British police wear blue uniforms, and it seems that until 1932 
they were dyed with a mixure of woad, indigo, madder, bran, and slaked lime.

Pagan
________________________________________________________________________ 
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz 
Christchurch, New Zealand 

From: winifred at trillium.soe.umich.EDU (Lee Katman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: madder in woad vats
Date: 20 Mar 1993 11:10:13 -0500

Hi,
Sorry about not quoting the relevant article, I'm not good
at using this funky editor...
When madder is put into woad vats, as I understand it,
it is to act as a nutrient for the fermentation, as is the
bran. To get color out of madder, it has to be cooked pretty 
well, and the fabric has to be mordanted (something that
indigo/woad dyeing doesn't require). Apparently lime and
microorganism (bran & madder provide food for the micro-
organisms) vats were even used up to the early part of this
cntury in Africa and the Appalachian sections of the US, and
are still used in Japan. The slaked lime mentioned is also
called Calcium Oxide.
Liles (my favorite source!) says that madder, bran, molasses,
dates and raisins were added to fermentation vats as sugar
sources for the fermentation. Another hint, you apparently 
do not want your wool to be in contact with the sediment
at the bottom of the vat, so it should be suspended in the
liquid. You can apparently leave wool in for a while, the
alkalinity in urine vats is of the most gentle sort.
Winifred

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: madder in woad vats 
From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 01:16:37 GMT

Hi Winifrid,

Er, I though if you boiled madder you released the yellow dye from it, which 
turned madder reds orange.  I know that if you overheat woad it yields pinks 
(which can be handy as an all-in-one overdying process for lavender shades if 
you mordant with alum).

If the madder is just used for fermentation I guess I can save it for real 
use in something else -- I've had no trouble getting bran to ferment so far.  
:-)  Thanks for the comments.

Pagan
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand

From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Saffron Shirts
Date: 21 May 1993 20:11:55 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering

Greetings from Fiacha,

Some time ago there was a thread on saffron and the saffron shirts of the
Scots and the Irish.

A couple of days ago I recived a gift of _Irish Spinning, Dyeing and Weaving_
by Lillias Mitchell which containsd the following:-

...this is bourne out by the only recipe we have, which is given by Good, an
Englishman, who was for a time priest and schoolmaster at Limerick, and whose
account of Ireland, written in about 1566, is incorporated in Camden's
Britannia. He says: "With boughs, bark and leaves of poplar trees beaten
together, they dye their loose shirts of a saffron colour (which are now much
out of use) mixing the bark of the wild Arbut tree with salt and saffron. In
dyeing, their way is not to boil the thing long, but to let it soak for some
days together in wine that the colour may be deeper and more durable."

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I might find "Camden's Britannia"?

I am assuming that the saffron used is in the process is a token trace to
satisfy local 'truth in advertizing' requirements.

	Fiacha

p.s. Thank you, Brid.

From: motto at cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mary.rita.otto)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyeing in the 9th c
Date: 21 Jun 93 21:43:24 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1993Jun18.190239.11305 at bcars6a8.bnr.ca> Henry.Troup at BNR.CA writes:
>In Hrolf Kraki's Saga (as interpreted by Poul Anderson) there's
>reference to red from lichen dye.  By extrapolation, blue and green from
>lichens would also be available.
>You can email Dame Enid care of me, BTW.
>
>Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada)

When the Roman invaders came to Gaul, they encountered fighters
who had dyed themselves blue with woad.  Dyes also existed for
green and red.  Mixing these could produce a wide variety of
colors.  Purple was difficult to make bright because of chemical
reactions between the dyes which caused it to turn brownish, and
hence, was expensive and rare.  Yellow was also well known and used,
as was bleaching, using chemicals and sunlight.  I have some
documentation for this at home in a book on Medieval Tapestry
Designs -- if you'd like the reference, please let me know.

So, pretty much all the colors are available in the 9th century.

Mary

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: dyeing in the 9th c
From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 00:18:16 GMT

Unto Henry, Mary, and the other goodly Folk of the Rialto does Pagan send 
Greeting!

If you're searching for C9th Scandinavian dyestuffs I'd suggest starting with 
the Compleat Anachronist #59 _Women's Garb in Northern Europe, 450-100 C.E._ 
by Christina Krupp and Carolyn A. Priest-Dorman (Mistress Thora Sharptooth, 
who sometimes appears here).  Its discussion of dyeing is brief, but it has a 
wonderful bibliography with references like: 

    Walton, Penelope, "Dyes of the Viking Age: A Summary of Recent Work," 
        in _Dyes in History and Archaeology_ 7, 1988. 

 > >In Hrolf Kraki's Saga (as interpreted by Poul Anderson) there's
 > >reference to red from lichen dye.  By extrapolation, blue and green from
 > >lichens would also be available.

Lichens produce dye by two methods:  fermentation or boiling.  Fermentation 
gives the interesting colours:  mostly pinks, purples, reds, and oranges.  In 
my experience boiling tends to produce yellows (at least in New Zealand).  
Yellow is the easiest and most common colour from natural dyeing.  Oh well.

The colour you get from fermenting fermentable lichens is not related to the 
colour of the lichen you started with.  If you can produce blue and green 
from lichen I'd really like to know, since they're two of the most difficult 
colours...

 > When the Roman invaders came to Gaul, they encountered fighters
 > who had dyed themselves blue with woad.  

I posted on this some months back:  there are three Roman sources which 
mention the bodypainting activities of the Ancient Britons, and they each 
give a different colour (blue, green, and black).  These colours can all be 
produced from woad, but blue's the most difficult.  Who knows?

 > Dyes also existed for green and red.  

Red, yes, but green?  If you know of a decent single dye for green, please 
tell -- all the good greens I know of require a two-stage process where you 
dye them with yellow and then overdye with woad-blue.

 > Mixing these could produce a wide variety of colors.  

Yup.  Think brick-red (madder:  Rubia tinctoria), slightly greenish blue 
(woad:  Isatis tinctoria), and clear yellow (weld:  Reseda luteola).  The 
active components of these three dyes were found in textiles from Sutton Hoo.  
With these primaries you can overdye to make orange, green, and purple.

 > Purple was difficult to make bright because of chemical
 > reactions between the dyes which caused it to turn brownish, and
 > hence, was expensive and rare.  

Hmmmm...  by the ninth century the use of the murex shellfish-based Tyrian 
purple (the stuff on Roman toga bands, which had these problems) was in 
decline.  On the other hand there's a type of lichen purple which was pretty 
widespread (and apparently fashionable in Viking Ireland) and you can make 
purples by overdyeing woad with madder.

The language of colour is fascinating and full of traps:  we'd probably call 
Tyrian purple "magenta."

 > Yellow was also well known and used,

Too right.  As I type I'm looking at one of the deepest and most aniline-
looking yellows I've encountered.  It's from onion skins on a mostly-linen 
underdress, and I don't feel I can any longer repeat the old comments about 
natural colours being tasteful and muted.

The colour of dyed fabrics depends on the fabric, the life-history of the 
dyestuff, and the dye process.  Scandinavian fabrics were predominantly wool 
and linen, and although well-scoured wool takes dye well, linen resists all 
but woad and tannin-based dyes (like onion skins and bark).  The growing 
conditions of the dyeplants and cloth-fibres (etc) make a difference to the 
colour -- I never know whether the colours I get in New Zealand are anything 
like the shades of Scandinavia, for instance, and linen grown here will never 
be as white as Irish linen.  Most frustrating.  The dye-process may involve 
mordanting (clubmoss is usually replaced with a little alum and less cream of 
tartar nowadays), fermentation using bran and/or stale urine (just don't ask 
my housemates about it, okay?), and heating for certain lengths of time at 
certain temperatures (madder contains a red dye which is released at below 
simmering temperatures, and a yellow dye which comes out with boiling.  If 
you want red rather than orange, you have to keep the dyebath just below a 
simmer.).  All that sort of thing.

Uhmmm... neutrals are easy.  The native northern sheep were brown anyway, and 
there's a range of bark-based dyes which produce pink through tan, brown and 
black (though getting a good black is quite surprisingly difficult).  

Another point to remember is that there seems to have been a great trade in 
both fabrics and dyestuffs at the time you mention.  Underdresses from Kiev, 
fine fabrics from Damascus, walnut shells etc imported for dyeing, are all 
found at Scandinavian sites.  Then there's the Han dynasty silk brocade in a 
C10th grave at Birka.  Makes you think: if A trades with B who trades with 
C... 

The moral of the story is that Viking colours are not restricted by the local 
flora.  Iceland didn't have to make do with lichens and dwarf-birch-bark, and 
there's some seriously strange documentable Viking clothing out there. 

  Pagan
  (aka Signy Ragnarsdottir)
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand

From: Sheri.Stanley at f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheri Stanley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyeing in the 9th c
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 08:35:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3603/326 - SPPE, St Petersburg FL

HT>|> > >In Hrolf Kraki's Saga (as interpreted by Poul Anderson) there's
HT>|> > >reference to red from lichen dye.  By extrapolation, blue and green fr
HT>|> > >lichens would also be available.
HT>...
HT>|>The colour you get from fermenting fermentable lichens is not related to t
HT>|>colour of the lichen you started with.  If you can produce blue and green
HT>|>from lichen I'd really like to know, since they're two of the most difficu
HT>|>colours...

HT>I was extrapolating from the Harris tweed greens and blues. The real
HT>stuff is said to be dyed with "crottle", a lichen.

As far as I've been able to ascertain, the colors to be gotten from
fermenting lichens are all in the red/purple color range. Yellow and
brown are fairly common from using lichens simply boiled, and you can
sometimes get a greenish yellow (pretty gross color, actually). However,
my experiments & reading have never once turned up the possibility of
blue or green from lichens (and probably a good thing!). Harris Tweed
greens & blues are dyed w/indigo or woad (w/a yellow overdye for the
green). The crottle is used in other colors, brown or yellow. It
accounts for the distinctive smell of Harris Tweeds.

Blues can be gotten from indigo, woad, dyer's knotweed. Greens are
usually gotten by overdyeing, but some plants will produce a greeny
color which can be strengthened by using copper as a mordant.

Grania
--  
Internet: Sheri.Stanley at f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG
UUCP:     ...!myrddin!mechanic!326!Sheri.Stanley
Note: Mechanic is a free gateway between FIdonet<>USENET
      for the TAMPA BAY,FL. metropolitan area.

From: palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: DYESTUFFS
Date: 12 Aug 1993 11:36:15 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes:
>There's a periodical called something like "dyes in Archaeology". An

Please post this reference.

>I haven't come across St. John's Blood, is that another name for
>kermes?

Its another insect in the same family.

_Prehistoric Textiles_ by E.J.W. Barber has a nice section on the
various red insect dyes.  Some have carminic acid, some kermesic 
acid as the coloring agent.

On pg. 224, "Late Neolithic textile fibers dyed red with kermes,...
as well as kermes itself, were discovered in cave at Adaouste
in southern France (Cotte and Cotte 1916, 764)" from the bib:
Cotte, J and C. Cotte. 1916 "examen d'un pa^te pre'historique"
_Comptes Rendus se l'Acade'mie des Sciences 162: 762-64.

Barber is worth reading for anyone interested in early spinning, 
weaving, or dying.

Ranvaig         palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu

From: longo at eggo.usf.edu (Andrea Longo)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: DYESTUFFS
Date: 13 Aug 1993 06:30:04 GMT
Organization: University of South Florida, Department of Computer Science and Engineering

In article <24do1fINNel9 at iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu> palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer) writes:
>
>_Prehistoric Textiles_ by E.J.W. Barber has a nice section on the
>various red insect dyes.  Some have carminic acid, some kermesic 
>acid as the coloring agent.
>
>
>Barber is worth reading for anyone interested in early spinning, 
>weaving, or dying.
>

I think I saw a paperback version for a somewhat less obscene amount of money.
Anyone looking to acquire should check this out.  I agree that it is a
wonderful source for textile people.  

Asleif

From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dyestuffs
Date: 17 Aug 93 09:46:52
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

Dyes in History and Archaeology 7 (Papers presented at the 7th annual
meeting, York 1988) Published by Textile Research on behalf of the
Association of Researchers into Dyes in History and Archaeology, York
1989 ISSN 0952-2476 
I bought my copy at the Jorvik Viking centre York U.K. for two pounds
ninety five pence. It saya further copies of this volume can be
obtained from:
P. Walton
Textile Research
12 Bootham Terrace
York Y03 7DH
England
Cheques, money orders or transfers should be made payable to 'Dyes in
History and Archaeology' Giro account no: 63-935-5906
possibly relevant papers included are:
D. Cardon: Mediterranean kermes and kermes dying
M.C. Whiting: The analysis of madder and related Dyes
H. Schweppe: Identification of red madder and insect dyes by thin
layer chromatography [abstract only]
P. Walton Dyes of the Viking Age: a summary of recent Work

Penelope Walton's paper says kermes was found on imported silks in
Viking Age England

Another paper mentioning kermes is
'Dyes and Wools in Iron Age Textiles from Norway and Denmark' Penelope
Walton, Journal of Danish Archaeology, vol 7, 1988, pp144-158
textile number c348 from Veien is listed as dyed with 'Polosh
Cochineal' 
textile number B4590 type 4 is listed as dyed with 'kermes or Polish
coch.'
Both Veim and Evebo Eide are listed as "Scandinavian or north European
in origin from late Roman/Migration Period"

JSDC Volume 105 November 1989 has an article by A Verhecken entitled
"dyeing with kermes is still alive!" and giving details on commercial
Kermes dyeing in Tunis, this is only done 3 or 4 times a year. The
author of the paper beleives he has found the only remaining
commercial kermes dyers.

JSDC Volume 106 May/June 1990 has an article entitled "Kermes, a Dying
dye" by Dominique Cardon, which begins:
"Kermes, the pea-sized parasite of a prickly evergreen Mediterranean
oak, is the source of one of the most exclusive dyes of all times:
scarlet. In ancient and medieval times it was second only to the
imperial purple..."
the article goes on to say the name kermes is from the Persian kirmis
from the indo-european root kwrmi (worm). The name originally
described the Armenian or Arrarat cochineal (Porphyrophora hameli) but
came to be applied to other red dye yielding insects.
Dominique Cardon the describes dyes obtained from 5 different insects
in the kermes family and identifies Kermes vermilio the species
yielding the red dye. Pretty similar stuff to the paper in 'Dyes in
History and Archaeology', 

Hope thats of some use. If you want more specific information let me
know & I'll see what I can find. Sadly since I stopped being a student
I don't have easy access to a good library, but I still have a huge
pile of papers at home I can look through. It's not the same though, I
thimk I'm addicted to libraries and suffering withdrawl symptoms!

If anyone wants a copy of the Dyes in History and Archaeology and has
trouble sorting out some U.K. currency I would be happy to do swaps
for some SCA literature (I have a very old copy of the known world
handbook, presumably it has changed since, & it sounds like a lot more
stuff has been produced aswell) 

Jennifer
Vanaheim Vikings
(not SCA, just passing through the Rialto)

From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: dyestuffs, kermes
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 06:20:44 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

Greetings from Pagan, in a flying visit...

Grania asked whether there was evidence that kermes was used in pre-1000 
Scandinavia and/or the British Isles.

When I asked Mistress Thora Sharptooth a similar question some months back (I 
was solely interested in Vikings), she replied that--as far as she'd been 
able to determine--they did not themselves use the stuff.  Apparently kermes 
turns up on imported silks, but not on wools or linens. 

Yes, it is a pity.  All I've got from madder so far is a deep salmon -- any 
suggestions? 

  Pagan le Chaunster
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand

From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes
Date: 19 Aug 93 09:21:00
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

I posted something earlier about analyses of Dyes on Viking Age
textiles in England. Your Mistress Thora Sharptooth may be
correct. In "Textiles Cordage and Raw Fibres from 16-22 Coppergate"
are results of tests undertaken by Dr G.W. Taylor. Textiles analyed
are 9th Century CE to medieval from 3 sites in York. Over 34 samples
were dyed with madder (5 were silk the rest wool), but only 3 pieces
of silk were dyed with kermes (a silk tabby weave textile, a silk
ribbon, and a silk reliquary pouch.)
The accompanying text comments:
"Kermes was imported into England in the Medieval Period, and is to be
found in the better-quality testiles of that period. It was always an
expensive dye, however, and it is not surprising that the cheaper
madder was the more common red to be used in the wool textiles"
However bear in mind that dye testing is a fairly recent innovation in
the archaeology of textiles, so some kermes red may yet appear on
English wool. But it would probably have belonged to the period
equivalent of a millionare! Dyes on linens are a bit more
problematical, as most surviving samples are too carbonised to analyse
successfully for dye content.
You can get brighter colours from madder by adding chalk to the
dyebath, a friend of mine had good results using alum mordant then
adding ammonia to the dyebath. Be sure not to overheat or the dye goes
a bronze colour instead of red. Use the freshest root you can get,
chopped fine with a food processor, or grated. I have only dyed with
madder powder so far which gives a brownish brick red, no matter how
cool you keep the dyebath. I've just got hold of some root & am hoping
it will come out brighter. If your colour is salmon maybe you just
don't have enough madder in the dyebath?
Jennifer
(Not SCA just passing the Rialto & stopped for a gossip)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: hwt at bcarh11a.bnr.ca (Henry Troup)
Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 17:15:27 GMT

In article <JAB2.93Aug19092100 at bhars243.stl.stc.co.uk>, jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes:

|> a bronze colour instead of red. Use the freshest root you can get,
|> chopped fine with a food processor, or grated. I have only dyed with
|> madder powder so far which gives a brownish brick red, no matter how
|> cool you keep the dyebath. I've just got hold of some root & am hoping
|> it will come out brighter. If your colour is salmon maybe you just
|> don't have enough madder in the dyebath?

My wife, Dame Enid, has done a lot of madder dyeing. We (which often means me) pound the dried root in a big mortar and pestle. The first bit off the root gives the brown - we separate it. The next third of the pounding gives the best reds. The last third is discarded. It's plant cores and is muddy again.

She made a lovely pink baby blanket by letting the madder bath ferment (no additions needed, it ferments by itself).  That was over two pounds of wool in six or so dyebaths.  Consistent madder dyeing is possible, but takes a lot of care.

Jennifer, we have madder growing in the garden. We've never used fresh root - I presume it needs to be dried before use? Do you know?

Before that, we got our best madder from a supplier in Godalming, England, whose name escapes me at present.  I know that she grew her own root.

-- 
Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
 "The minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect" - TJ

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: gwennis at jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Gwennis Mooncat)
Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 00:52:24 GMT

greetings!  glad some of us are still on line this week...8-)

i, too, have not managed to get real red from madder.  i have tried whole 
rooots and powdered, keeping the temp low, pH shifts, mordanting first and in 
the same bath (doesn't work too well together).  the best i can do is dark 
orangey-red, or screaming neon orange (with tin).  i also found that using , by
weight, 2 X fiber weight gives the most color, then doing exhaust baths.  yes, 
i know, that is an excessive amount, but it gave great color.

glad so many are interested in real dyes...8-)

gwennis

mistress gwynydd ni gelligaer, ol
march of tirnewydd, barony middle marches, mk
columbus, oh

From: KEITHS at KSUVM.BITNET (Lisbet)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: dyestuffs
Date: 22 Aug 1993 13:37:17 -0400
Organization: The Internet

I think that in his class at Vertigo II Richard Barbarossa said something
about the British Redcoat Red being from madder.  If I remember rightly,
he said there's a brighter vein in the root and that small children with
sharp knives peeled off the less bright stuff and that it took a very
large number of roots to get enough bright veins to do any worthwhile
amount of cloth.  Of course, being a terminally worried parent I keyed
in on the *small children* with *sharp knives* part and I could be
misremembering which plant the dyestuff was from.

Replies to BETHS at KSUVM.KSU.EDU  (Reply will send it to my husband.)

From: PRIEST at vaxsar.vassar.EDU (CAROLYN PRIEST-DORMAN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Dyestuffs (kermes)
Date: 27 Aug 1993 09:02:04 -0400
Organization: The Internet

Subject: Dyestuffs

Unto the Fishyfolk of the Rialto, greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

I missed seeing most of you at Pennsic, although I had the pleasure of meeting
a few of you briefly.  Next year we won't be camped with royalty, we promise!

Catching up on my digests, I find that while I was at Pennsic, Grania From
Trimaris wrote:

>Perhaps someone can help w/a personal quest of mine. I am searching for
>primary evidence of the existence and/or use of Kermes or St. John's
>Blood prior to 1000 C.E. I have searched in vain so far (though I'm
>pretty certain its use didn't just spring up overnight), and I'd love to
>hear if anyone has any pertinent info.

FIBER FREAKERY ALERT; IF YOU DON'T APPRECIATE DYEING OR EARLY
PERIOD TEXTILES, QUIT NOW!

From what I have been able to determine, kermes (Kermes vermilio)
was used in eastern Mediterranean silk dyeing well before its
eventual importation into western and northern Europe.  Here are
some sample references for pre-1000 examples of its use.  (The confusion 
over bug nomenclature has been taken into account, and only references
to the "true" kermes, backed up by chemical evidence of the dyeing 
agent kermesitic acid, have been listed here below.)

     Two silk textiles from Period 4B of Viking Age Jorvik, circa
     930-975 CE, catalogued in Penelope Walton, TEXTILES, CORDAGE
     AND RAW FIBRE FROM 16-22 COPPERGATE, Vol. 17:5 of THE
     ARCHAEOLOGY OF Y0RK (1989):  1342, "Fragments, largest
     145x30mm, of dark brown loose tabby, 18/Z/0.1 x 23/I/0.4. 
     Dyed with ?kermes."  1355, "Mid brown ribbon, 135x19mm, made
     up of two similar pieces, 100 and 40mm long, stitched
     together, tabby, with simple selvedges, Wa/48-52/S x We/30-
     36/S, c. 90 warps wide.  Dyed with kermes."  (p. 437)  Also,
     1408, the Jorvik reliquary pouch (although not necessary pre-
     1000), included a kermes-dyed samite outer pouch. (p. 438)

     Three textiles listed in Dominique Cardon, Alain Colombini,
     and Brigitte Oger, "Analysis of Medieval Red Dyes by HPLC,
     with Special Emphasis on the Insect Dyes," DYES IN HISTORY AND
     ARCHAEOLOGY 8 (1989), Table 8, p. 30:  MHT Lyon #34-872, 6th-
     7th century "Persian rider's coat," lined with a kermes-dyed
     textile mordanted with iron; MHT Lyon #12-574, another 6th-
     7th century Persian coat, with mohair "ornaments" dyed with
     kermes; Reims Cathedral, St. Remi's Shroud, before 892 CE,
     kermes-dyed silk weft.  

     "While exotic dyes such as kermes and (perhaps) Armenian
     cochineal appear on Middle Eastern textiles from classical
     times, nevertheless madder seems to have been very generally
     used, and most likely to give red shades.  On British textiles
     (or rather, those found in British archaeological
     investigations), the only other red dye found is kermes and,
     as expected, this appears only on textiles that were probably
     imported."  (George W. Taylor, "Reds and purples:  from the
     classical world to pre-conquest Britain," TEXTILES IN NORTHERN
     ARCHAEOLOGY, ed. Penelope Walton and John-Peter Wild [London: 
     Archetype Publications, 1990], p. 43)

I suggest that investigating the Byzantine (or perhaps the Spanish)
silk industry might be the best way to go about documenting the use
of kermes before 1000.

***********************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman			Thora Sharptooth
Poughkeepsie, NY			Frosted Hills ("where's that?")
priest at vassar.edu			East Kingdom
            Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
***********************************************************************

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: gwennis at jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Gwennis Mooncat)
Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 02:29:58 GMT

greetings!  (my editor seems to have stopped quoting for some reason..?)

about madder....i think we don't get real red for all of the reasons you
mentioned, plus unknown ones? 8-)  maybe someone growing it will run a series
of experiments for us.  trying it over several years of growth, different soil
pH, fresh roots, roots dried for different lengths of time, etc.

any takers?

about sandlewood...i've only tried samples, using 1 oz of wood chips.  i used
an alcohol extraction, and got an amazing, vibrant deep red-orange, completely
different from madder-color.  i haven't tried just soaking and cooking, and i
haven't run washfast or lightfast tests on it..yet.. but it really does give a
beautiful color.   i cold water soaked it, btw.

indigo in urine...my apprentice is fermenting a batch for me right now.  (she
has outdoor space behind an auto salvage shop,  smell no problem...8-) )  we're
intending on trying it out this week, depending on its status.  she's supposed
to check it today for me, so we can try it monday evening, i hope.  we're
usuing the egyptian indigo a friend sent me last year.  i'll post about it if
we get anything worth posting about.!

that's it for now.  anyone else doing anything?

gwennis

mistress gwynydd ni gelligaer, ol
march of tirnewydd, barony middle marches, mk
tarkhan, khanate basking lizard
columbus, oh

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jael at sage.cc.purdue.edu (Jael)
Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 23:04:14 GMT

In article <1993Aug30.022958.2255 at jcnpc.cmhnet.org> gwennis at jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Gwennis Mooncat) writes:
>greetings!  (my editor seems to have stopped quoting for some reason..?)
>about madder....i think we don't get real red for all of the reasons you
>an alcohol extraction, and got an amazing, vibrant deep red-orange, completely
>different from madder-color.  i haven't tried just soaking and cooking, and i
>haven't run washfast or lightfast tests on it..yet.. but it really does give a
>beautiful color.   i cold water soaked it, btw.
>gwennis
>

I think I've just had experience with this...I had a bag of saunders (which
I think is ground sandlewood bark, or something else having to do with
sandlewood) break in one of the boxes I was bringing home from pennsic.

Every damp cloth I used to clean up the mess (fortunately the box was camping
gear, not garb) is now a lovely pale maroon shade that doensn't want to wash
out.  So I can testify that  saunders produces a lovely reddish color - 
assuming it usually colors the things you WANT to  be red! :-) :-) :-)

From: Sheri.Stanley at f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheri Stanley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 93 09:12:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:3603/326 - SPPE, St Petersburg FL

GM>mentioned, plus unknown ones? 8-)  maybe someone growing it will run a serie
GM>of experiments for us.  trying it over several years of growth, different so
GM>pH, fresh roots, roots dried for different lengths of time, etc.

Sigh. We can only hope.....

(I *wish* I had a big yard!)

GM>about sandlewood...i've on;y tried samples, using 1 oz of wood chips.  i use
GM>an alcohol extraction, and got an amazing, vibrant deep red-orange, complete
GM>different from madder-color.  i haven't tried just soaking and cooking, and
GM>haven't run washfast or lightfast tests on it..yet.. but it really does give
GM>beautiful color.   i cold water soaked it, btw.

I've been using it powdered...just soaking doesn't seem to give a
particularly good color. Alcohol extraction's about the best bet. It's
not overly fast (well, faster than alkanet, but not as fast as, say,
cochineal).

GM>indigo in urine...my apprentice is fermenting a batch for me right now.  (sh
GM>has outdoor space behind an auto salvage shop,  smell no problem...8-) )  we
GM>intending on trying it out this week, depending on its status.  she's suppos
GM>to check it today for me, so we can try it monday evening, i hope.  we're
GM>usuing the egyptian indigo a friend sent me last year.  i'll post about it i
GM>we get anything worth posting about.!

Have you tried doing the "no work" method? Apparently (I haven't tested
it yet) you take a greasy fleece and put it in a sealed container w/the
indigo and leave it in the sun for several weeks. The suint is supposed
to cause the reduction. Of course, I imagine you'd get a slightly
variegated look, but if you're dyeing in the wool, you'd get that
anyway, really. I'm hoping to try it the next time I get a fleece. It
would sure cut down on the work!

I finished the piece I was weaving (which will be turned into seat
cushions for events and kid's garb), and I'm still spinning to be able
to weave off the homespun on my table loom (I counted the skeins twice -
how embarrassing).

Hey, got any hat patterns from early Scandinavia? I'm trying to design
my next project for the Gulf Wars laurel's "cultural exchange" (everyone
brings an entry and goes home w/someone else's entry), and the last two
years I've entered hats, so I thought I'd stay with the hat motif
here....

Ta,
Grania
--  
Internet: mechanic.fidonet.org

From: palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyestuffs
Date: 2 Sep 93 23:21:31 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

In article <JAB2.93Aug31151202 at bhars243.stl.stc.co.uk> jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes:

>I thought the british redcoat red was an insect dye. Certainly at one
...
>The point of all this rambling is that at one point the british
>redcoats were dyed with an insect dye. That doesn't mean that they
>didn't use madder at some other point though.

Millia Davenport _The Book of Costume_ pg 414 "European Dystuffs"
"The madder of the Low Countries is the fast red of military and
hunting coats until XIXc.  The kermes of the cardinal's red gowns..."
I dont know her sources for this though.

A point is that while madder and kermes would both be called red,
they are very different colors.  Madder tends towards orange while
cochineal, and I assume kermes, tend towards purple.

Ibid. About natural dyes "their colors have a subtle varied richness 
of which we have been deprived by standardization and fast colors."

Ranvaig (Sharon Palmer)
reply to sapalmer at magnusug.acs.ohio-state.edu

From: gwennis at infinet.com (Gwennis Mooncat)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Black Ink/Dye
Date: 17 Mar 1994 23:29:04 GMT
Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/268-3639)

greetings from mistress gwennis:

on making black ink or dye:

you might try boiling the galls in an iron kettle.  this is how i prefer to
prepare various dyes requiring iron.  be sure to strain it well.  if you do
choose to use iron filings, know that they are difficult to strain out
completely.  i remember a dyed, knitted hat that was entered in an a&s faire
many years ago.  when i was finished judging it (a very well made hat) my
lap was full of iron filings. i was glad that i had not tried on the hat;
however, the maker ran it through many more washes and finally removed all
the excess iron. i saw it recently, and it was still a nice brown.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: leeu at celsiustech.se (Leif Euren)
Subject: Re: Period Black Ink/Dye
Organization: CelsiusTech AB
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 1994 10:58:11 GMT

Mistress Gwennis wrote:
> you might try boiling the galls in an iron kettle.

I've made ink from a period recipy for some 5 years know, at it
prescribes gall nuts (correct word?) and green vitrol (iron sulphate).
I've never tried to make it in a iron kettle, but I believe the result
is better (i.e. blacker) with the vitriol.  Also, an iron kettle will
be used up in the end.

It is true that this ink is corrosive to the base.  I've seen medieval
manuscripts made on paper, where all the text, and the underlying
paper, was "gone".  The easiest way to read it was to hold it up to
the light, and let the it shine through the letters.  Vellum and
parchment take this better, and the acidity helps the ink to stick.

  your humble servant
  Peder Klingrode                         | Leif Euren    Stockholm, Sweden
  Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald         | leeu at celsiustech.se

From: gwennis at infinet.com (Gwennis Mooncat)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: dyeing with onions  (was Re: HELLO..)
Date: 6 May 1994 04:26:32 GMT
Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410)

Kathleen Costello (costellk at scooby.beloit.edu) wrote:
: BTW How do you use onion skins to dye fabric?  Any tips or sources 
: on procedure would be gratefully accepted.  I would like to start spinning
: and dyeing my own wool using period techniques this summer.

 greetings!  start collecting the skins.....the more you use per weight of
fiber, the richer/darker the color.  be aware that onion skin dye is not
light fast and will fade quite a bit over a year or two, depending on how
much sun it gets.  my 5 year old samples are very pale and peaked looking
now.  which dye you use depends on what's available and what use you are
intending for the fiber.

many mundane dye books are on the market with the basic info, but look for
Liles, (jim, i think)  'the art and craft of natural dyeing'  (my apprentice
has my copy right now, so i can't check the name).  he has lots of
historical info in it and pretty pictures.  

of course, i could mention the complete anachronist #41, dyestuffs, but
folks might think i'm bragging....8-)

gwennis

whose new .sig file is confusing the heck out of other newsgroups....

************************************************************************
mistress gwynydd ni gelligaer, ol, called gwennis
tarkhanum, basking lizard, great darke horde
current residence: shire of tirnewydd, barony middle marches, midrealm
aka columbus, ohio

From: gwennis at infinet.com (Gwennis Mooncat)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Blue (was: Maternity Garb)
Date: 27 Jul 1994 22:32:53 GMT
Organization: smelly indigo vats are us...

AuntieS at aol.COM wrote:
:    Mistress Gwennis or another natural dye expert can advise you on how
: various blues can be obtained.  (Gwennis, where are you?)

buried in an indigo vat...! my apprentice maeve and i are dyeing the weft
for the sheep to shawl demo at pennsic.  it's running rather slowly this
week because the temperature is fairly cool for the end of july.  slows down
the fermentation process.  dern it....

as for different blues... well, you can start with different color fibers. 
i can't -prove- they did it, but starting with grey wool gives a different
blue than white wool or brown.  i've found that using a light yellow then
indigo gives a turquoisey-blue with one or two lights dips. different
yellows give different blues to greens.  haven't tried diff. mordants yet. 
number of dips really makes the main changes in color.  so there is a really
wide variety available.  and how you reduce the indigo in the first place
also makes a difference. [stale urine is gentler on protein fibers, btw. 
don't forget the vinegar rinse.]  i have not tried the -saxon blue- vat,
with sulfuric acid.  oop, and i'd rather not risk ruining my fine wools.
also it's not as permanent as a fermentation vat.  thiourea dioxide is also
obviously oop, but is easier for city dwellers....just be careful how long
you dip.  and remember the final vinegar rinse.

ack.....got carried away! see what happens when you spend too long bent over
the stale p*ss vat....8-)

gwennis, who does remember to wear gloves when playing in the
tank....usually...

"what?  why are my hand blue?  aren't yours?"
************************************************************************
mistress gwynydd ni gelligaer, ol, called gwennis
tarkhanum, khanate basking lizard, great darke horde
shire of tirnewydd, barony middle marches, midrealm, aka columbus, oh
member #34497, society for creative anachronism      .sigfile v. 1.03
email:  gwennis at infinet.com        since the info was requested...8-)

From: corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Ammonia and dyes
Date: 1 Sep 1994 12:40:15 -0400

Greetings to all, and especially Mistress Gwennis, from Beorthwine-

Well do I know that a number of dyes, especially the orchil of which I am so
fond, were made by fermentation in urine. I have seen gentles travel great
distances with purple dye soaking in well-sealed containers, and Heaven help
them if this should ever come open in transit. All this is done for the sake of
the ammonia that the urine provides, without which the color can not be
produced.

I also understand that ammonia was long known as essence of Hartshorn, for it
was prepared from this material.

Has anyone tried preparing Hartshorn and using it in orchil or indigo? I have
made Hartshorn, but not for this purpose. Is there evidence that hartshorn
might be substituted for urine for turning _cloth_ blue (as opposed to the
alchemist's job of preparing a litmus solution for orchil-bearing lichen and
hartshorn)? This might make the job less troublesome than using urine.

Beorthwine of Grafham Wood

From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Black Ink/Dye
Date: 8 Mar 94 15:43:41
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

Mistress Gwennis passed me a recipe for black ink which I tried out
last weekend at a craft session. It worked so well I thought someone
else out there might like to try it. She got the recipe from a Dover
translation of a medieval text by Cenini (sp?)

We took a cup of oak galls and a cup of water, then added a teaspoon
of iron salts (ferrous sulphate). To make writing ink add a few
spoonfulls of gum arabic (I'm told that arrowroot would work aswell,
but we didn't try that).

The ink looks light grey when it goes on, but as it oxidises it slowly
turns to black. It's quite fun watching the ink develop before your
eyes, it's quite different from modern inks which just sit there
staying the same colour.

If you leave out the gum arabic/arrowroot you have a dye. Heat silk in
it and you get a dense bluish black. On wool it gives a very very dark
brown colour, it looks black beside a black T shirt, but had a
definite brownish tinge when held next to ythe dyed silk.

The oak galls are a concentrated source of tannin. If you can't get
oak galls we produced a similar effect by boiling three teabags in a
cup of water for about quarter of an hour. It wasn't quite as good an
ink as the stuff from the oak galls, but it improved overnight and
gave a reasonable black. The oak gall ink also improved overnight even
though we had strained out the oak galls by passing it through a
coarse cloth. I suppose there was still fine sediment in the pot that
was causing the tannin concentration to go up? After leaving overnight
the ink went onto paper as a dark grey colour, and turned as black as
india ink within minutes.

I would like to try the same again with a different source of Iron
since a bottle of Iron sulphate crytals doesn't look very period.
Iron filings or rust might work as a source of Iron to blacken the
ink, as vegetable tanned leather turns black when exposed to iron
rivets and fittings. I suspect the iron is reacting with the tannin in
the leather to produce the same black compound.

The oak gall ink dyes wood black, so I'm planning on using it to
paint in the details on my Viking tent, as the original from the
Gokstad ship had painted details on it.

We used quill pens to write with the ink, and sometimes found the ink
went on a little grey as it ran out. This meant that we had to dip
slightly more often than when using india ink, but it was worth it for
the fun of watching the letters change colour as we wrote.

Jennifer/Rannveik
Vanaheim Vikings

From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Oh woad is me....
Date: 6 Nov 1994 21:08:49 -0800

Mistress Gwennis Mooncat writes:

>Peter Rose (WISH at uriacc.uri.EDU) wrote:
>:   Since you've brought it up, what *IS* the process necesary to
>:   get dye from woad?

>to begin with, only first year plants produce indigotin. the second year, it
>all goes into producing flowers/seeds.

[process deleted]

>this is a complex process, and i would heartliy suggest to anyone
>considering it to read up.  there are several books on the market that have
>the info.  i would start with rita buchanan, "a weaver's garden".  there is
>also a booklet put out byt the brooklyn botanical gardens that has an
>article by rita with useful info in it.  only a few years old, but i don't
>have it handy right nonw [i loaned it out].  also, look for j.n. liles, "the
>art and craft of natural dyeing".

Something that I've yet to see anyone mention here:  Before planting
any woad seeds/plants, check with your local agricultural authorities.
In many areas of the U.S., at least, woad is illegal to grow
intentionally, having been declared a "pernicious weed".

Mikjal Annarbjorn
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN)
Subject: Re: natural dyes are muted...NOT! [was something about kilts]
Organization: University at Buffalo
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 19:27:27 GMT

In article <39eslm$432 at rigel.infinet.com>, gwennis at infinet.com (Gwennis Mooncat) writes:
>greetings to all:
>
>in a previous article about kilts, it was mentioned that natural dye colors
>were all muted! and not bright like modern materials.  this is erroneous!
>natural colors can be quite bright!  in fact, fermented lichen can be
>screaming fushia. and lichen dyes were used in the highlands until early
>this century.
>
>now, many natural dyes do fade over time, but not all. many stay extremely
>bright. a plaid woven of yarns dyed with onion skins, madder/lady's
>bedstraw, lichen, and woad would shine like a beacon. 
>
>i think the so-called muted tartans sold to "look like natural dyes" are
>hype! don't be fooled! check with your local fiber enthusiasts, some of them
>surely will have samples to show you.
>
>gwennis, natural dye maven
>
>************************************************************************
>mistress gwynydd ni gelligaer, ol, called gwennis
>tarkhanum, khanate basking lizard, great darke horde
>shire of tirnewydd, barony middle marches, midrealm, aka columbus, oh
>member #34497, society for creative anachronism      .sigfile v. 1.03
>email:  gwennis at infinet.com        since the info was requested...8-)

	The Unicorn tapestries at the Cloisters collection in Fort Tyron park
(in the north end of Manhattan) have beautiful, vivid colors. They were done,
BTW, half a milennia ago in 1500. Besides being a beautiful
medieval/renaissance allegory, they're also excellent sources for a variety of
information on Renaissance life. 
	Ironically enough, the artifical dyes that the 19th century restoration
used have since faded and look quite ugly.
	The Cloisters is itself wonderful. It's a bunch of Medieval buildings
patisched together. They even have a medieval herb garden. It's a division
of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (the guys with the great armor collection,
where I hope to work this summer...).

		--Tristan

From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: natural dyes are muted...NOT! [was something about kilts]
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 94 12:38:28 GMT
Organization: RAND

In Article <Cyt7Dr.AJz at acsu.buffalo.edu>, v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
(TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN) wrote:

>        The Unicorn tapestries at the Cloisters collection in Fort Tyron park
>(in the north end of Manhattan) have beautiful, vivid colors. They were done,
>BTW, half a milennia ago in 1500. Besides being a beautiful
>medieval/renaissance allegory, they're also excellent sources for a variety of
>information on Renaissance life. 
>        Ironically enough, the artifical dyes that the 19th century restoration
>used have since faded and look quite ugly.
>        The Cloisters is itself wonderful. It's a bunch of Medieval buildings
>patisched together. They even have a medieval herb garden. It's a division
>of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (the guys with the great armor collection,
>where I hope to work this summer...).
>
I'd like to add to Tristan's comments by adding both the tapestries in 
Paris' Cluny Museum and those at Hearst's (infamously overdecorated)
Castle here in California.  The colors are indeed rich, even with the 
passage of several centuries and, in the case of Cluny's unicorn series,
serious damage that's been repaired about the bottom edges.

I found the tour guide's talk in the billiards room at Hearst Castle
particularly enlightening.  The tapestries hung in that room are 
colorful and have not faded (at least not in the time they've been 
in place).  The felt covers of the pool tables, which had been replaced
within the five years previous to my visit (in the '70s) and dyed with
the best modern stuff, had faded appreciably--which the guide 
demonstrated simply by moving the racked pool balls over.  The tapestries
and the pool tables were subject to essentially the same lighting.

It's apparent to me that the tapestries are a better guide to the 
possible colors, tones, etc. of *fabric* than the behavior of modern
dyed fabrics with time.

By the by, I read in a book on kilts that the "ancient" colors had
been "extrapolated" from some very old plaid fabric that had been dug
up out of a bog and was supposed to be quite old.  Apparently the
sett matched that of some modern tartan or another and it was therefore
assumed that it *was* the same tartan, etc., etc. etc.

******************************************
SCA:  Philippa de Ecosse, Lyondemere, Caid  
mka:  Phyllis Gilmore, Santa Monica and Torrance, CA

From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dying Linen
Date: 22 Jun 1995 14:25:50 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

In article <3saskf$rjf at agate.berkeley.edu>, hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) writes:
|> Michael Stasica (michael.stasica at canrem.com) wrote:
|> : Good Day to all assembled:
|> 
|> : I've access to a large quantity of 100% linen, all white.  How difficult is 
|> : it to dye this material using onion skins for the dye?  Should I use a 
|> : mordant to fix the dye, or simply re-dye as the colour fades? 
|> 

The function of the mordant is to help the dye bind to the fiber.  Also, it
will modify the colour you obtain.  I'm not sure how the mordant affects the
light fastness of the various dyes, but since it involves binding the dye,
it will affect the wash-fastness.  Some natural dyes do not require a mordant.
These are called 'substantive' dyes.  Among them are the red lichen dyes 
(orchil, etc.), indigo/woad, and walnut hulls (on wool anyway).
Onion skins would be a mordant dye.

Unfortunately, most of my research has been on dyeing skins, so I've paid 
attention to the wool recipes (ie. protein fibers) rather than the plant fiber
recipes.  The impression I get is that mordanting linen is not as simple as
mordanting wool, and that linen is difficult to dye.  It certainly CAN be done
however.  Whether or not you think it's worth the trouble to learn to dye
linen for this one project is another question.  Using it white as Tangwystyl
suggests is probably your best bet.  I think linen looks pretty spiffy just
the way it is.

Cheers, Balderik/Rick

From: li899gej at kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dying Linen
Date: 25 Jun 1995 03:41:25 GMT
Organization: Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand.

Michael of Rye wrote:
: I've access to a large quantity of 100% linen, all white.  How difficult is 
: it to dye this material using onion skins for the dye?  Should I use a 
: mordant to fix the dye, or simply re-dye as the colour fades? 

Do test samples: one pre-mordanted with alum and another not.  Linen
doesn't take most natural dyestuffs well, but onion skins are one of the
exceptions.  I've had intense almost orangey gold from onion skins on linen 
with an alum mordant (standing in for clubmoss).

Note that even with the mordant the colour fades over time.  The two
things which seem to affect the colour most are light and washing.  Wash
rarely, by hand, and without modern washing agents.  You'll probably find
yourself re-dying the garment whenever you want to freshen up the colour
(for a while I redyed that underdress for any big event).  I've found it
possible to redye linen dresses in my large dyepot because they tend to
pack down small when they're wet and I can get an even colour -- woollen
clothing is a differen story and I wouldn't recemmend re-dyeing it.  All
the usual cautions about matching threads to fabrics apply particularly if
you intend to be able to re-dye the garment, BTW.

  Payne/Signy

From: wildgoose at gateway.ecn.com (Keith Cunningham)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Dying linen
Date: 25 Jun 1995 11:49:47 -0700
Organization: West Coast Computer Products

This is being posted by my friend Keith Cunningham for me.  I have no 
e-mail adress.  Morie Johns

In my experience 100% dyes very well.  Onion skins and a good long long 
soak will work.

Mordent with coachenil {Sorry I can't spell that :{) KEC}

Irish peoples dyed their linen a Saffron color as a way of showing 
wealth. It will fade over time.

For more details check out the net area on fibers.  Sorry I don't have 
the name.

From: UDSD007 at DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike.Andrews)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Oak Gall Ink
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:38
Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)

IVANOR at delphi.com writes:

>Quoting WISH from a message in rec.org.sca
>   >for it.   The only part I now don't have right is:  What's green
>   >vitriol?
>
>Sulphate of iron.
>
>Blue is copper, white is zinc. All are forms of sulfuric acid. Handle with
>extremem care.

Not so, dear lady.  Sulfuric acid exists in one form only:
H2SO4.  The "vitriols" are iron, copper, and zinc sulfates. They
don't have any hydrogen atoms sticking out on the left end of
the formula, and so can't be acids in the conventional sense.
(See _College Chemistry_, 7th. ed., by King/Caldwell/Williams,
from D. Van Nostrand; p. 152) They are "salts": compounds
between metallic ions and non-metallic ions. (op. cit., p. 153).

Even so, these salts should be handled with at least the same
care used with any other non-culinary chemical: don't work in
the kitchen, keep the work area clean, keep hands and chemicals
away from face, wash hands frequently, etc., etc.
--
udsd007 at dsibm.okladot.state.ok.us
Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews)  Namron, Ansteorra

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Black clothing (was Re: Tax status & Sharking)
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 20:10:24 EST

gealaclan at aol.com (Gealac lan) writes:
> Yes wearing all black is period, for certain periods, especially for the
> Spanish.  If I recall it started during the Spanish inquisition and spread
> across Europe.
> 
> GL
	Time to repost this, I guess...
meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg) writes:
> Just because a dye exists naturally doesn't mean it was used in period, 
> or even knowm about. There are some wonderful lichens that produce 
> glorious colors, but we have no documentation that they were used in 
> Europe during the middle ages for dyeing. Alas, sad but true.
> 
> Black black, that elusive black. (Alizaunde, back me up on this one...)
> How did the medieval dyer achieve black?
              ++++++++  <--- Emphasis added. A.de B.

> With much difficulty, rarely, and only for a few weeks at best.
> Overdyes of woad and walnut can approximate a black, but it will fade out 
> to grey rather quickly, or to dark brown. True black such as is achieved 
> wth modern dyes was virtually unknown. Clergy wore black...wool from 
> black sheep...which again was rarely true black but rather dark brown.
> Remember we still have no verifiable account of tin as a mordant. Iron 
> saddens any color, and could have been used, however, to darken a 
> brown/blue conbination overdye.
> == 
> In 1994: Linda Anfuso
> In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive  
> In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644
> 
	Respected friends:
	The underline is because Megan is dead-on correct, for the middle 
ages. But something strange happenned about the time my good Baroness died
(Sorry about the pun, Megan- from your point of view it's _will_ happen
about the time you die, but that's not much help given the topic...) 
	See,
there was this Spanish Queen-type person who had obsessive-compulsive
disorder centered around Roman Catholic nun's behavior, and the Courtiers
wore a lot of black because she wigged out if they didn't, and it started
being worn in other countries because those rich Conquistadores' relatives
were wearing it (which made it The Fashion), and then the old spotty-ugly 
stuff didn't cut it with the High Ticket trade, and _then_ the Portugese 
started buying Silk from a different batch of Benighted 'eathans with 
different dye techniques and experimenting with new dyestuffs from the 
Americas- * Well, now Bloody Mary holds the throne of England and things
are completely out of hand.  (Black which is neither brown nor blue in
cast- so-called `pure' black- will still be unavailable to the home dyer
at the time of the War Between the States - CE1860. I have the Godey's ladies'
books to prove it; they offerred several mixtures for ladies converting
gowns to mourning, and the perpetual complaint was of the colour turning
either "rusty" (brown) or "chalky" (blue).  

				Inkily yours,
						Honour/Alizaunde/Una
*Now you know why only Alizaunde de Bregeuf sells the cloaks Honour makes.
Una would do Very Unkind Things to get hold of so impossible a colour...|->

                                Honour, known societally as
                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf; or 
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)

From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Black clothing (was Re: Tax status & Sharking)
Date: 8 Jan 1996 17:59:43 GMT
Organization: Vassar College

Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

Quoting Megan, Alizaunde writes:

>> With much difficulty, rarely, and only for a few weeks at best.
>> Overdyes of woad and walnut can approximate a black, but it will fade out 
>> to grey rather quickly, or to dark brown. True black such as is achieved 
>> wth modern dyes was virtually unknown. Clergy wore black...wool from 
>> black sheep...which again was rarely true black but rather dark brown.
>> Remember we still have no verifiable account of tin as a mordant. Iron 
>> saddens any color, and could have been used, however, to darken a 
>> brown/blue conbination overdye.
[snip]
>(Black which is neither brown nor blue in
>cast- so-called `pure' black- will still be unavailable to the home dyer
>at the time of the War Between the States - CE1860. I have the Godey's 
ladies'
>books to prove it; they offerred several mixtures for ladies converting
>gowns to mourning, and the perpetual complaint was of the colour turning
>either "rusty" (brown) or "chalky" (blue).

I have to disagree here.  Overdyeing an existing gown can be considerably 
different from an original dyejob.  There are several early American recipes 
for black dyes in _The Arcana of Arts and Sciences, or, Farmers' & 
Mechanics' Manual:  containing a great variety of valuable receipts and 
useful discoveries, in the various departments of human knowledge; many of 
which were never before published_, by Dr. M. Parker (Washington, Penn.:  J. 
Grayson, 1824).  (Thank you, Mar Joshua, for sharing this source!)  Dr. 
Parker says "The black commonly given to all kinds of stuff is that which is 
produced by some vegetable astringent, particularly galls, with the salts of 
iron; but many circumstances must be attended to in order to produce a full 
and good color."  Then he goes on to describe several such recipes for silk, 
linen, and wool.

It is also quite possible to produce a decent black on an undyed textile 
using materials available as far back as the Bronze Age.  With my own eyes I 
have seen extremely deep "true blacks" on wool and silk result from the use 
of a minimally redacted sixteenth-century Italian recipe in _The Plictho of 
Gioanventura Rosetti_, utilizing simply iron fragments, vinegar, and oak 
galls.  I direct you to the dyeings of Dame Elayne Courtenay (of 
Carolingia), and to her article in the _Pikestaff Arts and Sciences Issue_ 
of December A.S. XXVI (1991), "Instructions in the Art of Dyeing Black," pp. 
51-53.  Not everyone may happen to have Elayne's felicity with blacks, 
however; it's her best color.

Whether, how, and how often true blacks were actually produced in periods 
before the sixteenth century, I don't know.  I do know of one pair of men's 
pants from Hedeby (10th century Denmark) that were dyed with walnut hulls 
and iron, and of some early Byzantine samites that included black silk.  
Additionally, many early Coptic tapestry weaves are catalogued as "purple," 
although their appearance is a pretty convincing black.  Perhaps they were 
overdyed purple and then saddened with iron.
*************************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman			Thora Sharptooth
Poughkeepsie, NY			Frostahlid
priest at vassar.edu			Austrrik
            Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
*************************************************************************

From: afn03234 at freenet2.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Vegetable Dye Techniques
Date: 5 Apr 1996 12:37:51 GMT

Rebekah and Chip <rinman at ucsd.edu> wrote:
> And to those with some experience in the art of vegetable dyeing, a query:
> How do you do it?

> I have some blonde horse hair that I wish to dye green (to be used as shoulder
> plumes for my new armor).  I'm figuring I can put the horse hair in a sack of cheese
> cloth and throw it into a big pot with some rich green leafy spinach.

> Any input would be greatly appreciated.

EXCERPTED FROM:
_The Second part of Secretes of Maister Alexis of Piemount_
                               ANNO 1563
Reprinted in 1977 by Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, Ltd., Amsterdam
                           ISBN 90 221 0839 2

(I've come to the conclusion that this is the "Hints and Help from 
Heloise" of the Rennaisance)

     To dye Heare into a Greene coloure,
Take freshe Capers, and distill theym, and washe your heare with the 
water of them in the sunne, and they will become greene.

Or, since this is animal hair try this:

EXCERPTED FROM:
_The Secretes of the Reverende Maister Alexis of Piemount_
                               ANNO 1558
Reprinted in 1975 by Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, Ltd., Amsterdam
                           ISBN 90 221 0707 8

     To dye the saied (hog) bristels yellowe, greene, or blew, or any 
other colour.

Firste you must wasshe them, and let theym boyle in Alome water, as the 
other before:  than take Ligustrum, and saffron, if you will have them 
yellowe.  Indicum, or the juyce of elder berries, or walwort, or els of 
the flowers of Ireos, if you will have them blew.  If you wil have them 
greene, take paynters greene, and dresse them as is above saied, 
assaying sometime if the coloure please you.  And by this meanes you may 
dye them what colour you like.

I hope this helps.  I don't know what some of the ingredients are, 
myself.  I've attempted but a fraction of the recipes in these books.

     al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris
     Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
     afn03234 at afn.org

From: dickeney at access1.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Vegetable Dye Techniques
Date: 5 Apr 1996 09:47:41 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

In article <4juqng$27m at news1.ucsd.edu>,
Rebekah and Chip  <rinman at ucsd.edu> wrote:
>And to those with some experience in the art of vegetable dyeing, a
>query: How do you do it?
>I have some blonde horse hair that I wish to dye green (to be used as 
>shoulder plumes for my new armor).  I'm figuring I can put the horse hair
>in a sack of cheese 
>cloth and throw it into a big pot with some rich green leafy spinach.

Whoa!  :) According to the newspaper, spinach will dye Easter eggs a 
"grayish gold".  For green, you could use carrot tops "greenish yellow".  
Sorry, they don't give a good green.  That is a hard color to get 
naturally, oddly enough; perhaps that was why only elves wore green in 
Irish lore--the Irish were master dyers, and knew that it practically took 
magic to get a good fast green.  However, two dyeings might do it if you 
dyed it with saffron first (for yellow) and then woad (for blue).  
I've read that different mordants will affect how yellow the saffron gets.

BTW, thyme and orange peels both give "yellow", onion skins give "golden 
yellow", and peels from Yellow Delicious apples give "lavender".  And red
cabbage leaves produced "blue".  Walnut husks "buff", tea "beige", strong 
coffee "brown" (darned strong coffee--my coffee stains are only beige).

-- Tamar the Gypsy

From: sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu (Dr. Bloch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Vegetable Dye Techniques
Date: 6 Apr 1996 17:18:44 GMT
Organization: Adelphi University, Garden City, NY

Rebekah and Chip  <rinman at ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>And to those with some experience in the art of vegetable dyeing, a
>>query: How do you do it?
>>I have some blonde horse hair that I wish to dye green (to be used as 
>>shoulder plumes for my new armor).  I'm figuring I can put the horse hair
>>in a sack of cheese 
>>cloth and throw it into a big pot with some rich green leafy spinach.

I don't know about spinach.  Parsley might work -- it was widely used as
a food coloring in the Middle Ages -- but I suspect it wouldn't last
long.

Dick Eney <dickeney at access1.digex.net> wrote:
>Whoa!  :) According to the newspaper, spinach will dye Easter eggs a 
>"grayish gold".  For green, you could use carrot tops "greenish yellow".  
>Sorry, they don't give a good green.  That is a hard color to get 
>naturally, oddly enough; perhaps that was why only elves wore green in 
>Irish lore--the Irish were master dyers, and knew that it practically took 
>magic to get a good fast green.  However, two dyeings might do it if you 
>dyed it with saffron first (for yellow) and then woad (for blue).  
>I've read that different mordants will affect how yellow the saffron gets.

Digging out my oldest dyeing source:

MP: To dye woollen green, either a blue or yellow dye may be first given to it,
MP: but the first is generally used because the yellow dye of the stuff
MP: would injure the blue bath [and not vice versa?!].  The intensity of
MP: the blue must ever be proportioned to the shade of green required.
MP: When the blue dye is given, the yellow is given by some of the
MP: processes already described.  The cloth having the proper ground, is
MP: washed in the fulling mills and boiled as for the common process of
MP: welding; but when the shade is to be light, the proportion of salts
MP: should be less.  In this case, the quantity of weld should also be
MP: less; but for all other shades it should be greater than for dying
MP: simple yellow.
MP: 
MP: Saxon Greens are obtained from the sulphate of indigo.  From six to
MP: eight pounds of quercitron, black oak bark, enclosed in a bag, should
MP: be put into the bath for every 100 lbs. of cloth, with only a small
MP: proportion of water.  Just as it begins to grow warm, when the water
MP: boils, six pounds of murio sulphate of tin should be put in, and in a
MP: few minutes after about four pounds of alum; these having boiled five
MP: or six minutes, cold water should be added and the fire diminished, so
MP: as to bring down the heat of the liquor nearly to what the hand can
MP: bear; after this as much sulphate of indigo is to be added as will
MP: suffice to produce the shade required, taking care to mix it well with
MP: the bath.  The cloth having been previously scoured and moistened,
MP: should then be expeditiously put into the liquor and turned very
MP: briskly through it for a quarter of an hour, that the colour may apply
MP: itself evenly in every part.  By this method beautiful greens may be
MP: dyed in half an hour.
MP: 
MP: A fine Green for dying Silk.  Take to one pound of silk, a quarter of a
MP: pound of alum and two ounces of white tartar; put them together in hot
MP: water to dissolve; then put in your silk and let it soak all night; take
MP: it out the next morning and hang it up to dry; then take one pound of
MP: fustic and boil it in four gallons of water for an hour; take out the
MP: fustic and put into the kettle half an ounce of finely powdered
MP: verdigris; stir it about for a quarter of an hour, draw it off into a
MP: tub and let it cool; then put into that colour an ounce of pot ash; stir
MP: it together with a stick; dip the silk therein till you think it yellow
MP: enough; rinse it in fair water and hang it up to dry; then dip it in the
MP: blue vat till you think it enough; rinse it again and beat it over the
MP: pin and hang it up to dry.  Thus you may change the shades of green by
MP: dipping either more or less in the blue or yellow.  For the green, take,
MP: to one pound of silk, three ounces of verdigris in fine powder, infuse
MP: it in a pine of wine vinegar for a night; then put it on the fire; when
MP: hot, stir it with a stick and keep it from boiling; in this put the silk
MP: two or three hours; or if it is to be of a light colour, let it soak only
MP: half an hour; then take scalding hot water, and in a trough, with soap,
MP: beat and work up a clear lather; in this rinse your silk; then hang it
MP: up to dry; rinse it again in river water; beat it well, and when it is
MP: well cleaned and dried, dress it.  [I'm confused: which bath is which?]
MP: 
MP: To dye Linen of a Green Colour.  Soak your linen overnight in strong
MP: alum water; then take it out and dry it; take woad, boil it for an hour;
MP: take out the woad and put in one ounce of powdered verdigris, according
MP: to the quantity you have to dye; stire it together briskly with the
MP: linen; then put in a piece of pot ash, the size of a hen's egg, and the
MP: linen will be of a fine yellow colour, which, when dried a little and
MP: put into a blue vat, will turn green.  Cotton and linen are, in another
MP: process, scoured in the usual way, and then first dyed blue; after being
MP: cleaned they are dipped in the weld bath to produce a green colour.  As
MP: it is difficult to give cotton velvet an uniform colour in the blue vat,
MP: it is first dyed yellow with turmeric, and the process completed by
MP: giving it a green by sulphate of indigo.
MP: The different shades of olive, &c. are given to cotton thread, after it
MP: has received a blue ground by galling it, dipping it in a weaker or
MP: stronger bath of iron liquor, then in the weld bath, and afterwards in
MP: the bath with sulphate of copper; the colour is lastly brightened with
MP: soap.  Yellow colours are rendered more intense by means of alkalies,
MP: sulphate of lime and ammoniacal salts; but they become fainter by means
MP: of acids and solutions of tin and alum.

The "processes already described" for yellows amount to 6 pages, and I'm
not going to type them all in, but here's an excerpt:

MP: Yellow is usually imparted to woollen substances by a decoction of woad,
MP: but as this plant yields its colouring principle with difficulty,
MP: alkalies are employed to assist in its extraction.  Alkalies are used
MP: chiefly for this purposes in dying of linen or cotton, and their place
MP: must be supplied by salt, sal ammoniac, and alum; when woad is to be
MP: applied to animal substances which are dissolved in alkalies, lime is
MP: sometimes used, to heighten the colours.  A good yellow of different
MP: tints may be procured by boiling woad with marine salt, lime or alum;
MP: the salt produces the deepest shade; alum renders the colour brighter;
MP: ammonia imparts a greenish hue to the bath; tartar gives a very pale
MP: shade; and copperas changes it to a brown.

Other yellow dyes mentioned are fustic (usually mixed with galls), tree
fungus, acacia flowers, woad-verdigris-and-alum,
alum-tartar-salt-and-weld, alum-tartar-and-weld, quercitron-and-alum,
etc.

Since the original poster specifically wanted to dye horsehair, I looked
for that; the closest I found was

MP: To dye Bristles or Feathers a curious Green.  Take one ounce of
MP: verdigris, one ounce of verditer, and one pint of gum water; mix them
MP: well together, and dip the bristles or feathers therein, they having
MP: been first soaked in hot water.

From _The Arcana of Arts and Sciences, or, Farmers' & Mechanics' Manual;
containing a great variety of Valuable Receipts and Useful Discoveries,
in the various departments of human knowledges; many of which were Never
Before Published_, by Dr. M. Parker, printed by J. Grayson, Washington,
PA 1824.

Note that this is NOT a period source; it's about halfway from us to the
1650 cutoff.  The oak bark referred to is probably a variety widely
available in the Midwestern U.S, but not necessarily in medieval Europe,
and the various nasty and/or poisonous chemicals might not have been
available 200 years earlier.  But with those caveats, I thought it might
prove helpful.

                                                 Stephen Bloch
                                           sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu
                                         http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/
                                        Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University

From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Copper-Ammonia Cloth Dyeing
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:30:44 -0600
Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Hi. My name is Morgan the Unknown and I have a challenge for all you
curious and/or experienced clothdyers out there.
  I've been doing some experiments with a copper-ammonia dye system that
can, under good circs, yield a blue dye. I'm interested in seeing as many
people from as many places do a small test version and send me a sample,
with any notes, and I will send a sample of mine.

COPPER-AMMONIA DYE
2 gallons water
1/2 cup household ammonia diluted in 1 cup water
4 oz ( or whatevers lying around) wet undyed wool yarn
one of the following: 200 pre-1966 pennies (newer pennies don't contain
enough copper, but do contain aluminum which alters the dye), 2-3 ounces
of copper sheeting, 5-7 inches copper wire or 3-4 inch piece of copper
piping. Or whatever else copper you can find.

Combine the water, ammonia and copper in either an enameled canner or
roaster that has no rust spots, or in a large plastic bucket with a lid.
Warning: you cannot later use this container for any food related use.
Also, you should not do this project inside your home. Ammonia fumes are
toxic.Garages, porches or the plain outside is best; summertime is ideal.

Here's where it gets tricky: the original recipe merely said to add the
fibre and swish it around periodically over a period of days.
Subsequent experimentation has given me the following additional advice:
This dye, like woad and indigo appears to be improved by oxidation, so
pull your yarn out for an airing fairly often. Also, I got grays with only
the merest hint of blue until I allowed the mixture to sit for a couple of
days BEFORE I put the fibre in. The liquid was abright blue, and the yarn
took the dye much more quickly and vividly than prior attempts ( dark navy
in two days, as opposed to medium gray over ten days.) Not to be bitchy,
but apparently no-one's immune to the "secret family recipe" syndrome.
Anyway, the artisans and craftspeople of the SCA are better than that,
aren't we? So let me know how it goes (via a 3-6 inch piece of yarn) and
I'll update if I find out anything new!

Morgan the Unknown
(the original LBC)

From: jartificer at aol.com (Jartificer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Copper-Ammonia Cloth Dyeing
Date: 11 Jun 1996 13:29:52 -0400

  What you are doing is staining your cloth in a cupramonioum complex
solution.  The blue you get is nice, but only lasts as long as there is
some ammonia around in the fiber.  Eventually, it will turn some shade of
green as copper carbonate (the form in malachite) forms.
  While I am more pigment oriented, the recipe you describe uses period
components, so it could have been done.  Stale urine for the ammonia and a
copper kettle as used for other dyes.
  Have fun and keep us up to date!

Master John the Artificer
John Rose

From: powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk cloth
Date: 3 Apr 1997 09:46:09 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

>       Here's an interesting question... how easy is it to dye silk?  Is
>it like linen in that it doesn't take very well, or is it like cotton in
>that it will hold the color for quite some time (well, nothing lasts
>through too many washes)?
>       I ask, because it seems to be most economical to buy an entire
>bolt of white, cut to need, and dye whatever color you wish.  Would this
>be feasible... or am I just indulging in wishful thinking?

Silk dyes gorgeously! ---one of the reasons it was so precious---

Remember that it prefers ACID dyes like wool (*not* like cotton).
Using natural dyes at our "dye-ins"  we have got some colours that
really contradict the "only muted tones are period"

wilelm married to the spinster Arianwen ferch Hari 

From: eherring! at mindspring.com (Evan Herring)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk cloth/setting color
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 19:57:04 GMT

gbrent at Kutta.Stanford.EDU (Geoffrey Brent) wrote:
>Yes, silk takes some _beautiful_ colours, and I don't really like
>to sew with anything else... But to reduce the amount of dye that
>_does_ come out in the wash, I'm told that dissolving a good
>amount of salt in the water helps. Anyone know if this is true ?

Salt will definitely help set colors, even in "store-bought" clothes.
I usually fill the kitchen sink with cold water, mix in a fair amount
of regular table salt, then add the item of clothing to be "set."  I
leave it in for a while (maybe a couple of hours), then wash it as I
intend to from then on.  **Warning:  I've never tried this with silk,
though.**

Magdalen of Cheshire

From: gbrent at Kutta.Stanford.EDU (Geoffrey Brent)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk cloth/setting color
Date: 3 Apr 1997 13:54:56 -0800
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

Evan Herring <eherring at mindspring.com> wrote:
>gbrent at Kutta.Stanford.EDU (Geoffrey Brent) wrote:
>>Yes, silk takes some _beautiful_ colours, and I don't really like
>>to sew with anything else... But to reduce the amount of dye that
>>_does_ come out in the wash, I'm told that dissolving a good
>>amount of salt in the water helps. Anyone know if this is true ?
>
>Salt will definitely help set colors, even in "store-bought" clothes.
>I usually fill the kitchen sink with cold water, mix in a fair amount
>of regular table salt, then add the item of clothing to be "set."  I
>leave it in for a while (maybe a couple of hours), then wash it as I
>intend to from then on.  **Warning:  I've never tried this with silk,
>though.**

I wash silks with salt, and it certainly doesn't seem to do any
harm. I don't leave it to set, though; I just wash it in the minimum
amount of water necessary, fairly quickly, rinse ditto. Although the
water turns some fascinating colours the silk is just as bright and
colourful afterwards, much to the dismay of those who have to look
at my garb ;-)

As always, wash like colours with like. Lightest first, darkest
last.

From: camino <camino at calweb.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk cloth/setting color
Date: 4 Apr 1997 04:42:50 GMT

eherring! at mindspring.com (Evan Herring) writes: 
> gbrent at Kutta.Stanford.EDU (Geoffrey Brent) wrote: 
> >Yes, silk takes some _beautiful_ colours, and I don't really like
> >to sew with anything else... But to reduce the amount of dye that
> >_does_ come out in the wash, I'm told that dissolving a good
> >amount of salt in the water helps. Anyone know if this is true ?
> 
> Salt will definitely help set colors, even in "store-bought" clothes.
> I usually fill the kitchen sink with cold water, mix in a fair amount
> of regular table salt, then add the item of clothing to be "set."  I
> leave it in for a while (maybe a couple of hours), then wash it as I
> intend to from then on.  **Warning:  I've never tried this with silk,
> though.**
> 
> Magdalen of Cheshire

White vinegar is used with hand spun silk with good results.
I don't know if it would change the color on commercially dyed
silk, but it doesn't with the hand spun I've used it on.  I
usually use about one cup per gallon of water.  I've also
used it on wool and cotton - both commercial and hand spun,
and on the bargain table cotton cloth.

Rhiannan Lowery

From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk cloth
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 07:41:58 -0700
Organization: Calgary Free-Net

On 3 Apr 1997, Kim Pollard wrote:
>       Here's an interesting question... how easy is it to dye silk?  Is
> it like linen in that it doesn't take very well, or is it like cotton in
> that it will hold the color for quite some time (well, nothing lasts
> through too many washes)?
>       I ask, because it seems to be most economical to buy an entire
> bolt of white, cut to need, and dye whatever color you wish.  Would this
> be feasible... or am I just indulging in wishful thinking?
> 
> Kimberly

One of silk's nicest properties IS that it takes dyes well. Not all dyes,
and not absolutely consistently, but in a general sense, it takes colours
well. My experience using plant dyes suggests that the colours differ from
the shades obtained dyeing wool: onionskin with alum, cream of tartar and
tin gave me a gold-yellow on wool, but I got a tangerine colour on silk
fibre. Keep in mind that it is difficult to dye large quantities of woven
fabric (you need a very large pot!) and also that many commercially made
fabrics are treated with detergents and other things, so you will have to
wash the fabric thoroughly before dyeing.

Morgan the Unknown

From: Chris Laning <CLaning at igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Silk cloths/setting color
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 22:33:31 -0800
Organization: Institute for Global Communications

Gentle Cousins,

If you don't mind using modern techniques to retain dye, there are two
commercial preparations that may help. I first heard of these through a
quilt mailing list, where color problems are common (since you often
have different, strong colors right next to each other, or to white . . .)

The first is called *Synthropol*, and I bought a half-pint bottle for
around $5 in an art supplies store. It's used for washing fabric before
dyeing to help remove sizing, etc. It *also* will remove any "loose" dye
that is not firmly bound to the fibers, and it is definitely the first
thing to use on anything light colored that something else has "run"
onto.
(As in "Aaauuuuggghh! All my underwear is PINK!")

The second is called *Retayne*, and is somewhat harder to find. I know Pine
Tree Quiltworks carries it, and IIRC they have a Web page. (No connection,
but I've heard good things about their mail-order service.) Retayne will
*set* color, and seems to do a considerably better job at it than vinegar,
salt, and other "home remedies." There are small amounts of it -- or of
something similar -- in Cheer detergent ("with ColorGuard") and possibly
others.

Note that Rit has packaged up both of these in packets containing about 2
Tablespoons (enough for 1 laundry load) and sells them for something like
$3.50 per packet. The Synthropol is called "Run-Away" and the Retayne is
called something I can't remember at the moment. The overpriced versions
are better than nothing, but if you do much dyeing it's well worth
searching out a better source.

Quilters I've talked to seem to be pretty well agreed that "setting" color
with vinegar or salt doesn't work very well, if at all. These things *are*
sometimes included in dye baths, but for different reasons (pH
adjustment, a "leveling agent" whatever that is, etc.)

If you want to stick to period methods, a vinegar rinse certainly won't
hurt any dye that is *not* pH-sensitive, though I don't know which are and
which aren't.  The common period method for getting a more intense color
that doesn't run seems to be to dye the same piece several times in
fresh dyebaths, rinsing in between until the color stops running.

(lady) Christian de Holacombe
Windy Meads, Cynagua, West
____________________________________________________________
O   Chris Laning
|   <CLaning at igc.apc.org>
+    Davis, California

From: kkozmins at mtholyoke.edu (Kim C Kozminski)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk cloth/setting color
Date: 8 Apr 1997 23:00:10 GMT
Organization: Mount Holyoke College

Both Synthrapol and Retayne are products of Pro Dye and Chemical- their 
phone # is 1-800-2-Buy-Dye.
        Roen

From: powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mustard Colored Fabric (Dye experiments)
Date: 8 May 1997 17:18:26 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

My messenger having failed in his task has found me on this bridge
watching the tide turn and the odd feud victim float by.  Being a kind
(no remarks as to *what* kind...) person I have "let him go" and will
endevor to deliver the contents myself...

Re: the type of pots used to dye in the medieval period
<deletia>
>BTW, I've never seen it written that iron pots (which dull dyes and
>roughen the wool) were what caused peasants to wear dull autumn colors.
>IMHO, though, porcelain-coated dye vats would seem 'way more expensive
>and unreachable for peasants than iron kettles. That may be why lower
>classes dressed dull, while the wealthier wore bright colors. There may
>be a TI article in there somewhere.
>Regards, Lady Meara al-Isfahani

Gracious Lady Meara; perhaps investigation into what was used in period
times as dyepots would be a good first step.

Although we are conditioned to immediatly think of cast iron as the
"old cauldron", cast iron only starts showing up in widespread use in the
1400's.  Prior to that most "cast" pots were brass or bronze and so
would leach copper, tin and zinc into the dyevat if used.  However
for large tanks that would not exceed the temperature of boiling water
*lead* was usually the material of choice!  Built up pots constructed of
sheatmetal could be wrought iron or bronze if small but tended more toward
bronze for larger ones. (there is also other time-period shifts of usage).

None of this covers the use of "pottery" pots which were common and came
in a range of sizes--Theophilus mentions one large enough to put a goat
in to collect its urine (circa 1120 A.D.).

My first guess as to a large dyevat for a professional dyer would be lead
followed by bronze.  For a small "local" dyer I would probably *guess*
pottery followed by bronze.  I would think that iron was very un-likely
especially for a professional who needed a large vat---even after
cast iron became available!

Remember that using your cooking pot for dyeing may result in dying!
So a peasant may not want to use a very expensive iron pot when a cheaper
one may be available.

wilelm the smith, married to a spinster who has been teaching spinning for
over 20 years and pressed into service on a regular basis to provide
dye pots, vats and materials.  (we did a traditional indigo tank once that
was around 3/5ths my production....) 

I welcome information to correct any "assumptions" I may have made as this
is *not* my primary area of interest!

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 04:23:07 -0700
From: "Kevin D. Walmsley" <walmsley at cruzio.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Period Colours (Scarlet)

Here is a little period dye info I just found on the web.
.......................................................................

Dye History from 2600 BC to the 20th Century

by Susan C. Druding

Originally written for a Seminar presented at Convergence 1982

2600 BC Earliest written record of the use of dyestuffs in China
715 BC Wool dyeing established as craft in Rome
331 BC Alexander finds 190 year old purple robes when he conquers Susa,
the Persian capital. They were in the royal treasury and said to be
worth $6 million (equivalent)
327 BC Alexander the Great mentions "beautiful printed cottons" in India
236 BC An Egyptian papyrus mentions dyers as "stinking of fish, with
tired eyes and hands working unceasingly
55 BC Romans found painted people "picti" in Gaul dyeing themselves with
Woad (same chemical content of color as indigo)
2ND and 3RD Centuries AD Roman graves found with madder and indigo dyed
textiles, replacing the old Imperial Purple (purpura)
3rd Century papyrus found in a grave contains the oldest dye recipe
known, for imitation purple - called "Stockholm Papyrus". It is a Greek
work.
273 AD Emperor Aurelian refused to let his wife buy a purpura-dyed silk
garment. It cost its weight in gold.
Late 4TH Century Emperor Theodosium of Byzantium issued a decree
forbidding the use of certain shades of purple except by the Imperial
family on pain of death
400 AD Murex (the mollusk from which purpura comes) becoming scarce due
to huge demand and over harvesting for Romans. One pound of
cloth dyed with Murex worth $20,000 in terms of our money today (Emperor
Augustus source)
700's a Chinese manuscript mentions dyeing with wax resist technique
(batik)
925 the Wool Dyers' Guilds first initiated in Germany
1188 the first mention of Guilds for Dyers in London
1197 King John (of Magna Carta fame) persuaded Parliament to regulate
dyeing of woolens to protect the public from poor quality goods
1200's Rucellia, of Florence, rediscovered the ancient art of making
purple dye from lichens sent from Asia Minor (similar to Orchils?)
1212 the city of Florence had over 200 dyers, fullers and tailors. A
directory of weavers and spinners was published as well.
1290 the only blue dye of the period, Woad, began to be raised
extensively in Germany. The 3 major dyes were now: woad, madder and
weld.
1321 Brazilwood was first mentioned as a dye, source from East Indies
and India. (the country of Brazil was named for the wood found there,
not vice versa)
1327-1377 Edward III, "Royal Wool Merchant" offered protection to all
foreigners living in England and to all who wanted to come to help
improve the textile industry.
Early 15th Century Cennino Cennini of Padua, Italy described the
printing of cloth (block printing) in his treatise called "Method of
Painting
Cloths by Means of Moulds"
15th Century Aztecs under Montezuma conquered the Mayans. 11 Mayan
cities paid a yearly tribute of 2000 decorated cotton blankets and 40
bags of Cochineal (insect dye) each.
1429 the 1st European book on dyeing "Mariegola Dell'Arte de Tentori"
was published in Italy
1464 Pope Paul II introduced the so-called "Cardinals' Purple" which was
really scarlet from the Kermes insect. This became the first luxury dye
of the Middle Ages just as Imperial Purple (Murex) had been for the
ancient world.
1472 Edward IV incorporated the Dyers' Company of London
1507 France, Holland and Germany begin the cultivation of dye plants as
an industry
1519 Pizarro and Cortez find that there is cotton in Central and South
America. They send back brightly printed fabrics showing that the
Indians knew about block printing prior to the Conquest. Cochineal from
Mexico and Peru now being shipped back to Spain.
1614 dyeing cloth "in the wood" was introduced in England: logwood,
fustic, etc.
1630 Drebbel, a Dutch chemist, produced a new brilliant red dye from
cochineal and tin. It was used at Goblein (Paris) and the Bow Dyeworks
(England)
1631-33 The East India Co. began importation of calico from Calicut,
India to England. At first they thought the fabric was linen, not
cotton.
Mid-1600's English Logwood cutters in Honduras lead a dangerous life
(danger from Spaniards, hurricanes, swamps, disease) in the Bay of
Campeachy, but could get very rich
1688 James II, of England, prohibited exportation of un-dyed cloth from
England to help bolster the home industry for English dyers over that
of the Scottish dyers.
1689 the first calico printworks was begun in Germany at Augsburg and
was later to grow into a large industry

From: "JulieAnna D. Rohde" <treschen at microtutors.com>
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
Subject: Re: ANST - Organic dye
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:11:49 -0500

You know, your squire does costume research.  I have recently read about
three red dyes. Madder is believed to have been the most common red dye in
England.  The dye was made from the roots of Dyer's madder (Rubia Tinctorum
L.).  Sources say that it usually produced a warm brick-red, but could also
produce peach, yellow, violet, brown and tan and could boost greens and
blues.  This plant was not native to England, but it is believed that it
was introduced early and was grown in Anglo-Saxon time, so that would be
close to 'period' for your persona.  Sorry, I don't have any sources for
the plant or recipes for making the dye, but its a name for you to work
with.

Another dye was 'Kermes'.  It was derived from the kermes shield louse
(Kermes vermilio), a Mediterranean insect which was imported to England
under the name 'grain'.

A third dye was made from brazilwood which was obtained from the heartwood
of the trees in the Caesalpinia family.  It was imported into Europe from
the late 12th C on.

These dyes were all found on fabric pieces recovered from excavations in
London.  Unfortunately, the fabric samples were all wool or silk because
linen does not survive burial well. The only linen pieces so far recovered
have been preserved because they were partially burnt or were covered in
pitch.  No dyes have been able to be identified from these sources.  Of
course the linens that have survived in treasuries and now in museums have
been the shroud and tablecloth type pieces which were left natural or
bleached white.  So, dyes specific to linen have not been mentioned in
anything I've read so far.

Hope this helps.  My major source for the above is:  Medieval Finds From
Excavations in London: Textiles and Clothing c.1150-c.1450, Elisabeth
Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard and Kay Staniland, Museum of London, 1992.

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 97 22:26:56 PDT
From: Holly_Sullivan at elric.maximumaccess.com (Holly Sullivan)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Dye supplies

 > I want to try my hand at dying.  I've read enough now to make a start, but
 > I need a source for materials.  

Dharma Trading has a web page and a free catalog that is very helpful.  I
thing the url is http://www.dharmatrading.com.  Only connection I have with
them is that I could gladly spend a fortune there.  :-) 

Date: 25 Aug 1997 14:06:10 -0700
From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: murex (was Voided Velve

<snip>
personal opinion says that the by then increasingly rare technique of dyeing
with murex for Imperial purple would have been an even more expensive
cloth...). The way velvet is made is thusly: a <snip>

Discover Magazine in the past few months had a very small article on a cool
middle-eastern archaeological find.  Apparently in a small bay somewhere near
Turkey, there have been found artificial reef/aquarium type thingies, where
they believe murex snails were raised in the Middle Ages, specifically for the
dye trade.  Sorry I do not have better details, I was looking at the magazine
in the lunch room and it has disappeared.
-brid

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:28:01 -0700
From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: murex (was Voided Velve

Marisa Herzog wrote:
> Discover Magazine in the past few months had a very small article on a cool
> middle-eastern archaeological find.  Apparently in a small bay somewhere near
> Turkey, there have been found artificial reef/aquarium type thingies, where
> they believe murex snails were raised in the Middle Ages, specifically for the
> dye trade.  Sorry I do not have better details, I was looking at the magazine
> in the lunch room and it has disappeared.
> -brid

Actually, the location of the find doesn't surprise me-- from what I
remember, the murex trade was centered in Cypress (the eastern
Mediterranean), which to this date is partially Greek, partially
Turkish. Cypress' port towns are littered with underwater rubbish piles
of murex shells. 

While paging idly through a textile book in a bookstore a month or so
ago, I read the assertion that a murex-dyed tunic in the time of
Imperial Rome cost the equivalent of US $200,000. <cough> One wonders
why Roman law bothered to limit murex purple to the Imperial family and
Senatorial rank by statute-- only a few others could afford it!

The book also said that the murex trade pretty much died out after the
fall of Constantinople to the Turk in 1453. If anyone's interested, I
could trundle off to the local Borders and flesh out the citation. Gee,
another excuse to wander through one of my favorite bookstores!

ciorstan

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:43:25 -0700
From: KyraKai <fiddlersgreen at geocities.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Wool

Yvette Baker wrote:
> I would like to attempt to dye some wool.  I have some pale green
> with brownish highlights, and I am wanting to dye it black. 

Do you care if the dye is period.  Period black dyes are very corrosive
to fibers and also tend to fade.
 
> what type of dye should I use? 

My recommendation would be to use RIT black dye.  It is REALLY
permanent. (read: be very careful what you spill it on)

 Cold or hot process?  If the wool is already spun or woven, I would use
Hot process.  It has the wonderful side effect of putting a final
"finish" to the cloth and the thread should never shrink again.   If it 
is wool fiber that has not been spun yet, use cold process (0f course,
around here there is only cold water in the winter), with minimum
agitation, or you will NEVER get it apart to card, spin then weave. (all
this learned in the school of bad experiences)

 I've also heard of using vinegar and salt as a final wash to set the
> dye in some fabrics.  Is this true for wool?

I have used both salt and vineger as mordants on wool, and they seem to
be equally effective.  Wool takes a dye so darned easily, compared to
some of the other fibres, and the dyes are not so ephemeral with wool
either.

Remember, what ever you choose to do, do an effective moth proofing
after, or all your hard work will be eaten away.

Kyra Kai

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:13:01 -0700
From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Wool

Carol at Small Churl Books wrote: 
> >>  Cold or hot process?
> >>  As the seasons
> >> change from warm to cold, I am wishing that I had made a heavier
> >> cloak.  :-}  So, I'm attempting to use some wool that I got at a garage
> >> sale to defray the cost.  I thank any and all for your help.  :-)
> 
> Did you catch the earlier discussion of fulling?  If you are looking for
> warmth, and you have enough fabric that you can tolerate some shrinkage to
> get warmth and softness, you may want to full your fabric first.  I've used
> the hottest wash, cold rinse, machine dry hot (repeat) method.  Then you can
> always machine wash it warm & gentle forever after.
> 
> Although I have not tried it, I would think that dying would work better if
> you washed the chemicals out of the fabric first.  (Aside from the fact that
> the cloth feels so much better without them.)

If I may add to what Lady Carllein has said-- if you are intending to
dye your wool, you're going to be exposing all those little barbs on the
hair shaft to heat and to some extent agitation, which are two of the
conditions necessary for forming felt. I would exercise a little caution
and cut a sample of the fabric for a test run through the entire process
before just tossing the entire swath into a hot dyebath.  I realize that
the original cloth is an inexpensive piece from a garage sale-- however,
you are proposing to invest a certain amount of your precious and
valuable time into the end result of a cloak. If your fabric is made up
of a worsted rather than a woolen thread (definitions available on
request!), then shrinkage is going to be moderate rather than amazingly
vast.

Additionally, it's my understanding that Rit is formulated as a 'union'
dye, which means its chemical properties are geared for any and all
sorts of fiber with which it comes into contact. If I might put forth a
suggestion, Dharma Trading Company (who has a website-- and will happily
send forth a big catalog upon receiving an e-mailed message) is a firm
that specializes in dye. They not only carry a number of lines of dyes
and assorted chemicals, but also dye-suitable fabrics and pre-made
garments.  If you go to http://www.yahoo.com and enter Dharma into the
search field, their site will pop right up. I am not connected with
Dharma other than having perused web site and catalog. I would suggest
buying a dye whose chemical properties are specifically formulated for
wool rather than Rit.

At any rate, I would also suggest a burn test of your mystery garage
sale wool to determine if there is any proportion of non-natural fiber
contained therein. For the most part, dyes will not take consistently on
linen or any of the man-made fibers other than rayon.

ciorstan
(who is not a dyer other than two forays into tie-dying as a teenager
with Rit, and was sadly disappointed when the LOUD results faded
terribly on washing...)

Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:42:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: SNSpies at aol.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Natural Dyes--Kamala and Fustic

Hi, Melinda.

Woad and weld are both very easy to grow.  Seeds are available from Richter's
in Canada (email:  orderdesk at richters.com   web site:  www.richters.com
phone:  1-905-640-6677).  

Dyeing with them are covered well in Rita Buchanan's A Weaver's Garden
(Interweave Press, 1987) and Jill Goodwin's A Dyer's Manual (Pelham Books,
1982).  If you can't find these, I would be happy to send you the pertinent
pages.  

I, too, would like to know sources for kamala and fustic.

Cheers. Nancy (Ingvild)

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:43:18 -0700
From: Nancy Lynch <lughbec at info2000.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Irish Dyestuffs

This listing is from a nicely researched piece called "Traditional
Dyestuffs in Ireland", written by Brid Mahon, and enclosed in a book
called "Gold under the Furze", edited by Alan Gailey and Daithi OhOgain,
Dublin; Glendale Press, 1982
(e-mail doesn't do Irish accent marks over letters so / = accent over
previous letter:)

common name             botanical name          Irish name
PURPLE
Flora Dandelion         Taraxcum offidinale     Caisearbha/n
Deadly Nightshade       Atropa Belladonna       Mioto/g bhui/
Elder (berries with alum) Sambucus nigra        Trom

GREEN
Dock Sorrel             Rumex acetosa           Samadh bo/
Foxglove                Digitalis purpurea      Me/araca/n na mban si/
Nettles                 Urtica dioica           Neanto/g

BLUE
Devils bit(leaves prepared like woad)
                        Succisa pratensis       U/rach bhallach
Woad                    Isatis tinctoria        Glaisi/n
Yellow Iris (roots)     Iris pseudacorus        Seileastram

BLACK
Alder(bark with copperas)   Alnus glutinosa     Fearno/g
Blackberry(young shoots with salts of iron)
                        Rubus fruiticosus       Sme/arna dubha
Oak (bark and acorns)   Quercus petraea and robur   Dair

BROWN
Seaweed                 (don't have botanical)  Dulse
Birch                   Betula pubescens        Beith
White waterlily(roots)  Nymphaea alba           Duilleog bha/ite

YELLOW
Autimn crocus           Crocus sativus          Cro/ch an fho/mhair
Marsh marigold          Caltha palustris        Lus bui/ Bealtaine
St. John's Wort         Hypericum sp.           Luibh Eoin Bhaiste

I repeat, I am not a dyer, but wishing to use probable colors in my
garments and giving information to others who wish to dye "Irish" colors
has made me very interested in the colors these dyes make.  I hope this
is helpful.:)
Sonas ort! (Happiness on you!)
Mistress Lughbec ni Eoin

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 9:13:03 -0500
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
Subject: Rit Dye (was Fabrics, Clothing and techniques of the 15th Century)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

My wife (Dunstana Talana the Violet) informs me that if you follow 
the instructions scrupulously with Rit dye, it works well.  There is 
a mordant in it that should set the dye.  It's been suggested to
her that if you stick a cup of vinegar or salt in per box of dye it
can help, but she's never found it necessary.
  
If your dye is being blotchy and uneven, you may want to a) keep it 
constantly moving in the water, so that nothing settles (the stuff 
touching the sides of the pot won't absorb die as well as the stuff 
completely surrounded by dye) and b) make absolutely certain that the 
material is completely clean -- even a little dirt of grease can screw 
up the dye job.

When you are done, completely rinse the material repeatedly to get out
the extra dye.

As for the dye remover, it works well for some things, but she has had
some trouble with it getting dye out of wool (she finally got a bolt
of "electric Aqua" colored wool to come out to a not-loathsome green-blue
before she gave up.  Some of the print dye on some linens she's used it
on have come out cleanly, others weren't touched - even with repeated 
uses.

In either case, follow the instructions *scrupulously* and you should be 
ok.

Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn
lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu

Subject: Re: ANST - natural dyeing ... reds & purples
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 09:33:07 MST
From: jhartel <jhartel at net-link.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Raven asked:
> how do you use either the bug or the cactus to dye with?

I bought my cochineal from DHARMA dyeing company. They come all dries
out in a nice plastic bag.  I just put some in one of those balls used
to make teas in, or I have made a small cotton bag and put themin it.
Then I throw the entire thing in a pot and boil for a while.  I reduce
the temp under 180* (candy thermometers are great for this) and put my
wool in.  The richness of the colour depends on how long you leave your
woolin and which mordants you have pre-mordanted your wool in.

Moriel***

Subject: ANST - cochineal
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 11:47:35 MST
From: "N.D. Wederstrandt" <nweders at mail.utexas.edu>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Dropping by because I heard my name mentioned....

Cochineal is easily found in Texas and Oklahoma on Prickly Pear (Opuntia).
You need to look for cactus that has fuzzy white cottony looking patches on
them.  those are the bugs.  The whote cottony stuff is a protective
covering they use.  Get something large and thin  (so you can scrape them
off without touching the needles on the cactus)and scrape them off into a
zip log bag.  If you squish any you see bright magenta red.  When you've
gotten enough and you take them home you will need to roast them (alive) in
your oven.  Put them in a pan and crank up the over to about 450.  Not a
low oven or they will crawl around trying to find a way out.   Watched a
friend do this with interesting results....

After they are crispy dead, feel free to use them any way you want.  Kermes
which is a european relative was found on kermes oaks (don't know who was
named for whom off the top of my head.  They are relatives and produce the
same lovely colors, the kermes not being as strong as the cochineal.

There's actually a great deal of material that makes excellent dyestuffs
here in Ansteorra.

Clare

Subject: Re: ANST - natural dyeing ... reds & purples
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 19:56:50 MST
From: Deborah and Robert Wade <dwade at ballistic.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

>how do you use either the bug or the cactus to dye with?
>
>raven

Insect:  collect the insect and kill (easiest way is with fingernail
polish remove) and dry in the sun for two to three weeks.  Then place the
desired weight of insect in the dye vat.  (I usually put them in
chessecloth bags so that bug parts are not in my dyestuff).  Dye as usual.

Cactus:  Generally the fruit or the flower (species dependent) are
collected and placed in the dye pot with and steeped.  The plant matter is
removed and dye is ready to use.

Subject: Re: ANST - natural dyeing ... reds & purples
Date: Sat, 04 Jul 98 17:36:34 MST
From: Deborah and Robert Wade <dwade at ballistic.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

>Using bug parts or plant parts:
>do I have to add some kind of chemical to make it colorfast or just
>water, and what temperature of water?

To get the dye into the water it must be boiled (simmered) but you do not
want to boil to wool it turns to felt.  The water must be warm to hot when
it is added but not boiling.

Cochineal is colorfast without a mordant, but I generally add alum to the
dye bath to be on the safe side.

Rhiannon

Subject: Re: ANST - natural dyeing ..
Date: Sun, 05 Jul 98 18:13:10 MST
From: jhartel <jhartel at net-link.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

raven asked:
> How can I get in touch with Dharma Dyeing Company?

If you are net connected try this address:
http://www.dharmatrading.com/

 * OR TRY*

DHARMA TRADING CO.
POB 150916
SAN RAFAEL, CA 94915
Tel: (800) 542-5227 (USA) :: Tel: (415) 456-7657 (Elsewhere) ::
     Fax: (415) 456-8747(Everywhere)

Moriel***

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:10:55 -0700 (MST)
From: starsinger at webtv.net (theresa sorrell)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Fibers to thread

Another excellant book on fibers is Rita Buchanan's "A Weaver's Garden"
or "A Dyer's Garden."  The first book deals with descriptions of fibers
and how to raise, prepare and use them.  The second book deals with
growing, preparation and use of dye plants.  Both are excelland and both
are also from Interweave Press.

www.interweave.com

will get you their website and access to their in print books and
magazines.

Starsinger

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 9:53:00 -0600
From: KATHARINE WHISLER <kwhisler at kentlaw.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: stopping the dye from bleeding

From: Kristi Kelly <Kristi.Kelly at mci.com>
>I have dyed several yards of silk gauze purple with Rit dye.
>I dyed it in a salt solution and I have soaked it in a 4 to 1 vinegar
>bath.
>But still it bleeds!  What else can I do to fix the color?

>Elspeth

Your problem may stem from the fact that you used Rit dye.  Rit is a
"union" dye: a mixture of acid dye (which dyes protein fibers-- wool &
silk as well as nylon) and direct dye (which dyes cellulose fibers--
cotton, linen, etc.)

This makes it great for dyeing things like nylon/rayon blend lace, and so
forth, but means that when you dye a fabric that takes up only one type of
the dye you wind up washing away half of the dye in the dyebath because it
didn't stick to anything.  If you aren't used to this, you may think that
an awfully large amount of the dye is washing out.  Actually, the type of
acid dye they use in Rit isn't exactly the most washfast anyway.

If that isn't the problem, then it sounds like you have a dye fixation
problem of some kind.  First of all, are you sure the fabric is in fact
silk?  If it is actually acetate or something, there is no way Rit is
going to do much.

Was the fabric clean before you dyed it?  Silk is covered with a natural
gum called sericin that can inhibit dyeing, and sometimes textile mills
add other things to it, resins to retard wrinkling, mothproofing agents,
etc.  If they remain on the fabric in huge quantities, you will have
trouble getting the dye to take.  Always prewash fabric you intend to
dye.  If you can get a detergent that has no optical brighteners
(basically, florescent dye) and no fragrance, all the better.  (Dish
liquid often works well.)

Did you get the dyebath hot enough?  If it wasn't hot enough, the chemical
reaction that binds the dye to the fiber won't do it's thing, and you will
have inadequate fixation of the dye.  For silk, you want it at around 185
degrees farenheit.  (If you get it hotter, you may damage the fiber.)  Did
you keep it at that temperature for at least 15 minutes to give it time to
do its thing?  People often run into trouble with this when they dye in
the washing machine.

Did you put the acetic acid in the dyebath rather than just soaking the
fabric in an acetic acid solution after you removed it from the dyebath?

Basically, if the dye didn't take on this first try, it probably isn't
worth it to try to "fix" whatever dye is still on the fabric.  (You could
try steaming it as is done with silk-painting scarves, but it would be a
pain.)  If I were you, I would wash and rinse the fabric very well, until
it looks like you have gotten out most or all of the unfixed dye left on
the fabric.  Then, I'd let it dry and assess whether I was satisfied with
whatever color I got.  If not, then I would redye the fabric.

I hope this is helpful.  Modern chemical dyes, I know about!

--Kathy/Katerina

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:26:15 PST
From: "T Cardy" <otterbabi at hotmail.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: stopping the dye from bleeding

>I have dyed several yards of silk gauze purple with Rit dye.
>
>I dyed it in a salt solution and I have soaked it in a 4 to 1 vinegar
>bath.
>
>But still it bleeds!  What else can I do to fix the color?
>
>Elspeth

Unfortunately red base dyes are the most unstable of all forms of
coloring (red hair dye is also very unstable).  I had the same problem
with a piece I dyed scarlet.  The people at Dharma Trading (who I
consider to be pretty expert at this)  tsked tsked at me and I suspect
rolled their eyes when I told them I was dyeing with RIT.

The problem with RIT it that you have to use such a strong solution to
achieve a deep color that it will continually bleed, until all the red
pigment has found a happy medium.  The only thing the Dharma people came
up with was to strip the color and use one of their more stable dyes
especially used for silk.

Try calling them at 800 542-5227 (they're in San Rafael, CA and are very
cool people to wotk with)

T. Van Vlear

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:48:15 -0600
From: froggestow at juno.com (Roberta R Comstock)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: stopping the dye from bleeding

When using Rit, which is formulated to dye both animal and vegetable
fibers, it may help if, in addition to your target fiber (the silk, in
this instance) you simultaneously dye something of the opposite type
(such as some cotton muslin or a hank of cotton yarn) to take up the
second component of the dye.

I am using this method for some basket reed I need to dye this week.  I
will put some unspun fleece or wool yarn or wool fabric into the same dye
pot to take up the opposite component of the Rit dye in hopes that there
will then be less unbonded dyestuff lurking on the surface of my reed
waiting to smear and run when I weave with it.

I'll let you know how it works.

Hertha

From: "Anglin" <anglin at mi.verio.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dying help
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 04:00:17 -0800

>I was wondering if there are any period ways to die fabric without heat.
>If anyone could point me toward sources it would be appreciated. Especially
>ones on the internet since our local library tends to turn nothing up for
>me ever and cash resources are low.
>
>Agnes

    Most period dyestuffs require heat to extract the color from the plant
or insect materials, and continued heat to get the color to penetrate and
bind to the fiber.  dyeing is a chemical reaction, of sorts, and heat speeds
things up.

    Any cold water process would heild only the palest of colors, and the
colorfastness would probably be rather poor.

    If you are thinking of a program for children, try Kool- aid dyeing, it
is not period, but it is safe, since no toxic chemicals are involved.
Take two packages non sweetened Kool-aid, and 1 pint of vinegar, mix well
and put into a squeeze bottle with a fine spout.  (Like the Ketchup/ mustard
containers you used to see in restaurants.)

    Wet out your clean wool well-it must be completely dampened, or the
colors will not stick well.  Grab a handful, squeeze out the excess
moisture, and lay it on a large sheet of saran wrap.  "Paint" your colors on
using the squeeze bottles.  When done, wrap or in saran wrap to make a flat
packet, and hang in a sunny window for a few weeks- the warm sunlight sets
the color. (Works best in summer)  If time is tight, microwave for a little
while to set the color (You will have to experiment to get the time right-
it will vary depending on the size of the packet.)

Good Luck!

Mistress Elen Greenhand
MKA Ellen Anglin
Middle Kingdom

From: drgnflydsn at aol.com (DrgnflyDsn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dying help
Date: 23 Jan 1999 18:30:52 GMT

>The reson I asked was because I don't have anything big enough to die 
>fabric in
>on top of the stove or a fire. Does anyone have any ideas where I mind find
>something like that for not too much money. It'd probably have to come out of
>the tax return which also needs to cover a tent. Any suggestions would be
>appreciated.
>Agnes

If you don't want to use your washing machine and want to stove top dye then I
would recommend using a canning pot.

It's big enough to use for several yards of fabric.  They only problem is it's
a little hard to keep stirring the fabric do to the height of the pot.
I usually use a step stool so I can stir on the stove and not put strain on my
back. 

Now, a few words of caution.
Never use utensils that you cook with for dying. 
If your using a powdered dye do not mix it in the kitchen.
Take it outside it's to easy for it to get air born and all over the kitchen.
For an excellent source of dye and materials I really love Dharma Trading at
http://www.dharmatrading.com/
Very helpful folks especially if you don't have much experience.

Ronda
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dragonfly Design
http://members.aol.com/DrgnflyDsn
Masks, Historical Clothing Patterns, Garb

From: drgnflydsn at aol.com (DrgnflyDsn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dying help
Date: 24 Jan 1999 04:48:23 GMT

Agnes posted:
>Thanks a lot That's a great idea. I just have one question. Can I still use
>thepot for canning after I've dyed things in it.

No.  I wouldn't recommend it.  They are pretty cheap to purchase in terms of
cook ware and you can find them used at thrift stores.  Save your good one for
canning.

Ronda

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:13:10 -0500
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: Blind.Copy.Receiver at compuserve.com
Subject: Some books on natural & period dyeing

I found some English small press publications that might be of interest to
you folks, contact me direct if you want to buy any of them.

Mel

All prices are British pounds approx 1 pound = 1.6 US dollars, plus
postage. They are A5 slim volumes.at 2.50 pounds each.

Dyer in the Garden-how to grow common dye plants & dye with them

The begineer Spinner- Basic fleece knowledge

The Medieval Dyepot-history of traditional British dyes

The spinners Rhymerie- somgs and poems about spinning, weaving and
shepherding

Knitting handspun yarns- how to calculate the right amount for a garment,
plus basic patterns.

Everything in the kitchen sink-dyeing with kitchen waste

The insatiable spinner- spinning with the likes of llama, alpaca, angora,
dogs, cats etc

The dyers palette- how to get the whole spectrum from natural dyes

A Shepherd's miscellany-, crafts rhymes, stories & traditions on Shepards &
sherherding

A Calender of common dye plants, -Nettle, dock,etc plants for dyes from
Britain

The foreroom rug- heirloom hooked rugs

Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 00:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Elonwen ap David <elonwen at hotmail.com>
To: SCA-ARTS at UKANS.EDU
Subject: onion skins

I haven't been able to read my E-mail for a while, otherwise I would have
answered earlier to the request for proper onion skin-dye instructions.

To dye with onion skins is very simple, you don't even need a mordant to get
a nice, bright yellow. Take plenty of onion skins (I'd say at least two
litres of tightly packed onion skins per 150-200 grams of wool). The more
onion skins you have, the brighter colour you get, well to some point. Put
the onion skins into at least 5 litres of cold water. The water should be
almost full of onion skins, but keep in mind that there should be enough
water for the wool to be covered later on as well! First you must bring the
onion skin-water to boil. You can let it boil for a little while, but it
doesn't really matter. Then you put in the dry wool as a skein (tie the
skein at least from four points before putting it into the water, otherwise
it gets all tangled up when you stir it). You can take the onion skins away
before adding the wool if you need the colour to be very even: the yellow
might get brighter where the onion skins touch the wool, but it doesn't
always happen and when it does, the spots can hardly be seen.
Keep the water in about 90*C for at least half an hour. From one hour to two
is the optimum.

The last stage is to let the wool cool down slowly and then rinse it. You
can do it either by letting the wool stay overnight in the dye water or to
gradually lower the temperature of the rinsing waters(that is the first
rinsing water to which you put the wool straight from the dye water would be
80*C, the next one 60*C, then 40*C and 20*C). You don't need a thermometre
for that, it is very easy to estimate close enough the right temperature for
the rinsing water. If you've let the wool cool down by itself, be sure to
rinse it properly in cool enough water (about room temperature). Finally you
can (if you wish) put some vinegar (about two tablespoonfuls) into the last
rinsing water, it improves the colourfastness a bit and it also may brighten
the colour.

If there is something that I forgot or if you need more
precise/clearer/better instructions, please ask!

Elonwen

Subject: BG - Dying tip
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:49:06 -0500
From: Craig at apple.com, Robin <aceia at mac.com>
Reply-To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org
To: "Bryn Gwlad List Serve" <bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org>

For those of you who sometimes dye cloth or fiber, I found this handy tip
-
Using Rit to dye wool:
       Many will tell you it is not
       good for wool. But there is a trick to it. Don't follow the written
       directions. Instead, dissolvee your dye and on a low simmer, heat the
       fiber and dye for 12 hr. or overnight. Then let it stand until
       completely cool. It will exhaust the dye that way.

From: "Hrolf Douglasson" <Hrolf at btinternet.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT Authenticity Police: dye colours.
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:34:06 +0100

You want authentic screaming colours?
hot pink   try kermise or its american cousin cochaneal. its very bright
neon yellow or green Weld produces the brilliant yellow when dyed in a
ceramic pot and then double dye to get the green....add woad for blue.
orange is also a double dye  weld then madder.
They are disgusting...A Couple of the menfolk in our group use these colours
and although we keep trying to BAN them on grounds of taste they are
perfectly doable with the dyes available in England pre 1066
I play a lot earlierr than the SCA.

Vara who suffers from seeing limegreen trousers done with an orange top at
some shows. And don't forget polished linen can look shiney.

From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:02:09 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT Authenticity Police: dye colours.

Tara/Magdalena <tsersen at nni.com> wrote:
>I know full well that there were bright colors in period.  But, there's
>a difference between brights and neons.  The fact that it might be
>physically possible to get "hot pink" like the stuff that 12 year old
>girls wear doesn't mean they did it in period.  Do you know of an
>example of a neon color in illustration or dye recipe?  I don't know
>of any.

"Neon" colors have additional UV reflecting chemicals added, so, no
"day-glo" colors in period. But bright colors, yes. Pastels could be
produced but were undesirable until the 16th century. Pastels
generally came from a spent dye bath and would have been for those
who couldn't afford a fresh dye. Rich saturated colors came from
fresh dye baths with lots of dye material in it. Rich saturated
colors were more expensive and more desirable.

>And, is there any evidence that cocheneal ever made it to Europe in the
>mere century that there was contact?  It's a Mexican bug, so I think
>it's unlikely that it was common, if available at all.  Isn't kermise
>Egyption?

Cochineal is indeed from Central America, but is a scale insect that
is very closely related to kermes and produces a nearly identical
color. It was imported into Europe early in the 16th century and
rather quickly replaced the more expensive kermes in the 16th century.

Kermes is not Egyptian, although kermes dye was used in Egypt. A
number of related scale insects producing similar colors came from
various regions around the Mediterranean. There's even a related
scale insect dye from Poland. The most common source for kermes, as I
understand it, was what is now Turkey.

For those dyeing today, cochineal is a perfectly acceptable
substitute for kermes. Cochineal is expensive enough, and I don't
even know if kermes is even available.

>With what frequency were dyestuff other than madder, woad,
>weld and saffron used?

Saffron was not commonly used in Europe or the Near East as it is not
a fast dye (that is, it fades with light and with washing) and it was
very expensive. Fast colors were desirable in period in Europe and
the Near East.

Weld was the most common source of Near Eastern yellow. There were
several other good yellow sources, although without as rich a color,
such as dyer's broom, which was also used in Europe.

Madder was a common dye and a common trade item throughout Europe and
the Near East. It produces a warm red (an orangey red), while scale
insects produce a cool red (cherry red or magenta). Depending on the
chemical composition of the soil in which it was grown, the color
produced by madder can range from orange to tomato soup red to deep
rich red.

Most dyes require a mordant so that the dye "bites" into or bonds
with the fiber. The most common mordant was alum, another important
trade item throughout Europe and the Near East. It produces a fairly
bright true color. The fiber, yarn, or fabric must be mordanted
before it is dyed, or the dye will wash out or light fade.

There were a few other mordants, but alum was the most common. Iron
saddens, that is greys, the color. Tannins give it a slightly warm
brown cast. Copper based mordants makes it greener, but can cause the
fiber to deteriorate rather quickly. Tin as a mordant didn't come
into use until the 17th century. Chrome, which use is now discouraged
in home dyeing because it is so toxic, wasn't used until much later.
Both tin and chrome produce very bright colors.

Woad was common in Europe. Indigo was common in India and the Near
East. Because indigo produces a stronger color than the same amount
of woad, indigo was imported into Europe as a luxury dye. Indigo and
woad contain similar chemicals and produce similar blues.

Indigo does not require a mordant - in fact, in the dye pot it is
yellow. The cloth turns blue when it is pulled into the air and the
dye oxidizes.

Indigo overdyed with madder produced the dark dull purple wool
tapestry-woven into many Egyptian tunics. So far none of the samples
analyzed are purple with murex. I suspect murex was reserved for more
luxurious cloths.

Indigo overdyed with weld or another strong yellow dye produced the
common greens.

Indigo overdyed with henna produced a dark brown and a black common
in the Near East.

Anahita

Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:29:37 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cochineal was cochaneal

There is a neat photo essay on cochineal
at http://wpni01.auroraquanta.com/pv/caledonia/cochineal
There was a photo essay in Saveur also some years back.
Johnna Holloway    Johnnae llyn Lewis

> On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, Gorgeous Muiredach wrote:>
> > Thank you for the most interesting tidbit on this.
> > As I pointed out in another mail to the list though, these references
> > appear to be for colouring and dying fabrics.  The use I see right now are
> > for foodstuff :-)> >
> "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" wrote:
> Well, yes, but you're still going to have to go to fiber arts supply to
> get it. It comes in whole bug form, extract, or powder, depending on where
> you get it from (and it smells nasty).> Margaret

From: Louise Craig [lcraig at iname.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 10:58 PM
To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org
Subject: RE: [Bryn-gwlad] dyeing linen

If you interested in natural dyeing, especially the hard to dye colors,
check out this book. I saw this guy and some of the fabrics he dyed at a
costume seminar at Williamsburg - fantastic colors!

The Art and Craft of Natural Dyeing
Traditional Recipes for Modern Use
J.N. Liles
0-87049-670-0

Louise Craig
(one know as Liadaine of Cul Mor)

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 21:37:01 -0700
From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap at hevanet.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: Indigo
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

CIBA Review 85, 1951 " History of Indigo"  CIBA is/was the giant Swiss
Chemical Company (now Ciga/Geigy who make my migraine meds) who make
dyestuffs.

	"In the history of the dyeing industry indigo holds a unique place by
reason of its irresistible rise to supremacy among dyestuffs and its equally
rapid dethronement by the modern chemical colours.  Though well-known to the
craftsmen of antiquity, it was so precious that it remained in rare use even
in the Middle Ages, but the  discovery by Vasco da Gama (1498) of the sea
route to the East Indies and the European settlements in the Antilles and on
the continent of North America put it on the market where it ousted woad,
its most dangerous competitor, only to be in turn defeated by the rapid
advance of the coal-tar colour industry.

	Like woad and the aristocratic purple, to which it is related, indigo is
one of the oldest vat dyes known to the craft having already been employed
in prehistoric days; but it was not till thousands of years later, after the
synthesis of indigo had been established, that it became evident that
indigo, woad and purple were not only closely related in technical respects
but belonged to the same group of dyestuffs.  Both the indigo and woad
plants which yield a blue dye, contain indican, that is to say a kind of
ester or glucose compound of indoxyl and sulpheric acid or glucose
respectively, from which by decomposition indoxyl and then by oxidation
indigo is readily obtained.  The juice extracted from the purple yielding
mollusks, Tyrian purple, with which in ancient times the robes of emperors,
kings and general were dyed, also contains a derivative of indigo, vis.
6-6dibromoindigo (Ciba Review No 4, page 129)

	The sub-continent of India, noted for its age-long dyeing craft, is not
only the home of the indigo plant proper (Indigofera tinctoria, but also the
oldest centre of indigo dyeing in the Old World (cf. page 3088 CIBA Review
#85).  It is believed that indigo first reached the ancient world together
with precious luxury articles imported from the East in the last few
centuries B.C. though the quantities received in the Mediterranean countries
must have been very small on account of the high prices realized.

	Indigo is first mentioned as a paint pigment in Vitruvius' "De
architectura", a work dating from the end of the first century B.C. and
general supposed to be based to a large extent on older Greek 
Sources..."

..."Realizing the great economic importance of woad, chiefly grown in
southern France, Picardy, Northern Germany and especially in Thuringia and
contributing substantially through taxation to the revenue of their
countries, the princes and Governments prohibited the employment of indigo.
Only in England, where little woad was cultivated, did the introduction of
indigo meet with no resistance; in fact, a Bill passed in 1581 provided
that, for the purpose of dying woolen material black, woad alone or woad and
indigo (nele, alias blew Inde) should be used as a bottoming.  On the
continent of Europe, however, drastic steps were taken to keep the new
dyestuff out, very heavy penalties being announced for instance in France
against defaulting merchants and dyers in answer to the complaints lodged by
the estates of Languedoc in 1598.  In Germany its prohibition was justified
on the grounds that the indigo used by dyers in the orpiment vat (cf. page
3077) was injurious.  Thus the imperial police regulations issued at
Frankfort-on-Main in 1577 referred to 'the recently discovered injurious and
fraudulent, devouring and corrosive colour' as 'the devil's colour' and
instructed all governing bodies to see to it that cloth-dyers in every town
and state should refrain from using it."

It goes on to say that indigo wasn't very popular before da Gama's voyages
because it was terribly expensive and woad, even though it took more of it,
gave much the same result for less.  It was also used as an astringent for
wounds.

I just got a whole load of CIBA Reviews Via ILL and am in the process of
Xeroxing all that appeal to me.

Regina Romsey

> I had thought that Indigo might be of New World origin, but I guess it
> just showed up in the same time frame as a result of the European
> Voyages of Discovery opening up new areas. I'm surprised, since this
> would be one of the few dyes that could be used to create blue colored
> foods according to earlier conversations here, that indigo wasn't
> imported along with the other Asian spices such as pepper.
>
> Stefan

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 02:02:20 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Indigo
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Stefan, indigo is an Old World plant. It's origin appears to be South
Asia. It was very commonly used within the SCA time frame in many
parts of Asia - bearing in mind that the Middle East is basically
Southwest Asia - and in North Africa, and thence to Spain.

Indigo was a trade item into Europe, but was considered expensive,
partly because of protectionist practices in some places (protecting
their woad production). Indigo was desirable in large part because a
little bit of indigo dyes considerably more cloth than the same
amount of woad.

It was sometimes used to make paint for manuscripts - by the Spanish,
for example, in their wonderful spacy art - i'm forgetting the time
period - but all the people have huge saucer eyes and the artists
used only about 5 colors of paint - vermilion, crimson lake
(alizarin) (a cool red, whereas vermilion is a warm red), indigo, a
bright yellow (i'm not sure of the source - there are a couple
possibilities, all toxic), white, and black.

Anahita
a persona proudly wearing indigo dyed clothing

Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 23:27:28 -0400
From: Daniel Myers <eduard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] [Fwd: [EK] Dying linen with saffron]
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On May 9, 2005, at 10:34 PM, Martin G. Diehl wrote:
>>> From: Baron Ernst Nuss von Kitzingen <baronernst at snet.net>
>>>
>>> Can anyone please lead me to some sources regarding
>>> dying linen with saffron?
>>>
>>> First, I need information regarding dying silk and/or linen with
>>> saffron. Not alternatives, not suggestions for similar colors but
>>> actually dying silks and linens using saffron.

I'll forward this question to my lady (she does all the silkewerk in
this family), but I can say for a fact that silk takes up saffron
color very nicely.  A couple of times in the past she's put water in
the mortar I used to grind really fresh saffron and then dyed a skein
of hand-reeled silk with it.  It doesn't take much saffron at all to
do the trick and the color turns out incredibly rich.

- Doc  
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   Edouard Halidai  (Daniel Myers)

Sent to the Florilegium by: jbrmm266 at aol.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Terri Morgan <nothingbutadame at inthe.sca.org>
To: 'Tricia Emery' <jessimond at yahoo.com>; Tines of the Trident (Tines of the Trident) <SCA-atlantia-marinus at yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Tegan (Laura Franks) <nitefall3 at earthlink.net>; Manx Camp <TheManx at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:26:35 -0400
Subject: [marinus] Period dye pictures

Regia Angliorum's DMC dye equivalents
 http://members.regia.org/dyes.htm

Thora Sharptooth's lichen dyes:
http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/image/lichens.jpg

her madder on silk:
http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/image/mirabels-hlad.jpg

weld & weld/woad:
http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/image/laurel-garters.jpg

and a pic of her "misc." on wool:
http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/image/plaid.jpg

color wheel of natural "authentic" dyed wool:
http://www.42nd-dimension.com/NFPS/nfps_colours.html

Hrothny

Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 23:04:41 -0500
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Favorite herb books
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

   A Dyer's Garden by Rita Buchanan
Not just period dyes, although many are.

Ranvaig

> I'd like to use a book store gift certificate to improve my herb book
> resources.  I'd like ones that are thorough and have good details for edible
> or medicinal herbs.  Info on dye herbs would be a bonus! What are your
> favorites?

From: Stephanie Ross <hlaislinn at earthlink.net>
Date: May 5, 2006 8:10:50 PM CDT
To: stefan at florilegium.org
Subject: dyeing comments for the Florilegium

From a Trimarian list:

Date: Tue May 2, 2006 11:08am(PDT) 
Subject: Re: Dye Question

Anyone ever come up with a period dye combination that will create 
something resembling "apprentice" green?

Just wondering.
Signy

Yes, as a matter of fact we have had great success with the green created by 
overdying indigo with goldenrod. Winfield and I did a shibori demo using 
indigo, and I brought the goldenrod that was harvested just before last years 
hurricane. It gave a lovely green. I did add some rabbit bush that was 
harvested at the same time. It is a native yellow dye plant used out west, and 
surprisingly is growing in my area. I just threw it in the pot with the 
goldenrod. To save time at the demo, I boiled up the goldenrod and the rabbit bush before the event and only brought the liquid. I'm at work right now, but if 
you want some references for the greens, I have them on my computer at home 
and would be happy to send the info this evening if you want them.
Cait

To add on to what Mistress Caitlin said; I have found in further 
experimentation a simple method. Dye first with goldenrod or dyers broom 
using an alum mordant until an you get a yellow as intense as the green you 
want. You may need to let the fabric dry overnight and do a second or third 
soak in the color. Let the finished yellow completely dry for at least a 
full day ( a week would be better) then wash it to remove any left over 
mordant. Then make a batch of slightly weakened indigo and dip the fabric 
in for only short periods, letting it line dry between dips (just a couple 
of hours not over night). This will let the indigo completely oxidize and 
the fabric dry to reveal the true color. You will be surprised how little 
indigo it takes to turn yellow to green. This method is time consuming, but 
I find it gives you more control over the final product.

-Winfield

Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:32:52 -0600
From: "Sue Clemenger" <mooncat at in-tch.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Favorite Herb Books
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

There are two books related to natural dyeing that I'd strongly recommend,
vis-a-vis using garden plants or wild finds.  The first is "A Dyer's
Garden," by Rita Buchanan, and the second is "Wild Color" by Jenny Dean.  If
you can only get one, go for "Wild Color," as it's more comprehensive
(although slightly less plant-your-own oriented).

--Maire

<the end>